Sciatica Is a Symptom, Not a Diagnosis
Sciatica comes from the sciatic nerve, right… Right?
This episode of the Unreal Results podcast was inspired by a recent conversation with a friend of mine who had self-diagnosed herself with sciatica. And while sciatica is often given as a diagnosis, it’s actually more of a description of symptoms than anything else. In this episode, you’ll hear how I actually think through sciatica and why those symptoms can have very different drivers beyond the sciatic nerve or lumbar spine.
In This Episode, You’ll Learn:
How to differentiate between several potential drivers of sciatica-like symptoms
Where visceral, peripheral neurovascular, and CNS influences fit into your assessment
How I use the symptom presentation and the LTAP® to narrow down the potential driver
Odds are high that someone with sciatica symptoms is going to walk into your practice. This episode will give you a more connected framework for thinking through what to assess and ultimately, what to treat.
Resources & Links Mentioned In This Episode:
Get on the waitlist for the next cohort of the online LTAP® Level 1 course
Ep. 9: Left Side Sciatica or Right Side Shoulder Pain?
Ep. 27: Sciatica Secrets
Ep. 48: Small Intestine and Mesenteric Roots
Ep. 157: The Visceral Connection to Musculoskeletal Pain
Check out the Swelling Reduction Protocol Course Here!
Learn the LTAP® In-Person in one of my upcoming courses
Considering the viscera as a source of musculoskeletal pain and dysfunction is a great way to ensure a more true whole body approach to care, however it can be a bit overwhelming on where to start, which is exactly why I created the Visceral Referral Cheat Sheet. This FREE download will help you to learn the most common visceral referral patterns affecting the musculoskeletal system. Download it at www.unrealresultspod.com
=================================================
Watch the podcast on YouTube and subscribe!
Join the MovementREV email list to stay up to date on the Unreal Results Podcast and MovementREV education.
Be social and follow me:
Instagram | Facebook | Twitter | YouTube
-
Anna Hartman: Hey there, and welcome. I'm Anna Hartman, and this is Unreal Results, a podcast where I help you get better outcomes and gain the confidence that you can help anyone, even the most complex cases. Join me as I teach about the influence of the visceral organs and the nervous system on movement, pain, and injuries, all while shifting the paradigm of what whole body assessment and treatment really looks like.
I'm glad you're here. Let's dive in
Hello, hello. Welcome back to another episode of the Unreal Results podcast. I tried my hardest to get it together and get back in the swing of things with the podcast over the last couple weeks after dropping the most recent episode a couple weeks ago after the summer break. But I just, I couldn't.
Life happened, and I just, it got away from me. Uh, partly because did an, a week, almost a week, a short trip to New York City with my niece. So my sister and I treated my 16-year-old niece and her older sister, uh, to a trip, uh, to see Hamilton. She's a huge Hamilton fan, big New York City fan, even though she'd never been there before.
Seen it on a bunch of TV shows and stuff, and probably TikTok, and was, like, obsessed. Wants to go to school in New York City. Um, and so it's, like, her dream. And so we did that for her for her 16th birthday, and it was so much fun. Um, we went Wednesday to Monday, and we did all the things. Uh, Hamilton was phenomenal, which newsflash, Anna, people have been saying that for, since it came out, right?
I'm not the first person to say, like, the Broadway show of Hamilton was amazing. But holy cow, it was amazing. Um, I have obvious- Well, not obviously. I, as a, as a auntie of someone who's obsessed with Hamilton, I've heard the Hamilton music ad nauseam. And, um, I think I watched the full, like, um, movie rendition of the Broadway show when it came out years ago.
Um, and I, I mean, I liked it, but I didn't, like, I didn't see what all the... I didn't see what all the excitement was about. Holy cow. On, on watching it on Broadway, it was- It was amazing. Um, they, it was, yeah, it was amazing. They, they did an amazing job. It was a cool story. I was locked in the whole time. She was so happy.
My niece was so happy she cried. Um, and so yeah, a suc- success, successful trip to New York City. We also did all the things. Um, I've been to New York City a lot. Um, I had a patient, like an athlete, who played for the Yankees for years. So I would actually go to New York City like probably like twice a month for like four days at a time, so like eight days a month I'd spend in New York City.
Um, so over the years I like explored quite a bit, but still, I mean, there's just so much to do in New York. And then even too, when I was working with my athlete that played for the Philadelphia Eagles, every once in a while I'd ride the train into the city and like meet a friend and for a day in the city exploring, and there...
It's, New York City is just There's so much to do, and there's so much to see and experience. And, um, I think I've talked about this actually on the podcast before 'cause I was just in New York in May for a business meeting and, um, it's not my favorite place. Like, I would actually never want to live in New York City personally, but I love visiting it.
And I see why people want to live there, and it's just a kinda such a cool energy and such a cool vibe, and there's always stuff to do. And but with that too, even visiting, like you could visit a hundred times and still not see everything. And so, um, I've always pretty much done it by myself though. Um, occasionally I had gone with a friend or met a friend there, but for the most part I've always gone to a lot of the, um, sightseeing things on my own.
Um, and so therefore some of the sightseeing things I've not really done before. And so it was fun to have my sister and my nieces to enjoy it with and also to share it with, um, you know, things that I had discovered, restaurants that I love, areas of, uh, Manhattan that I enjoy. You know, it was cool to be able to share them with them.
So, um, it was a good trip. It was exhausting, all the walking and just the constant doing. It was expensive. I felt like I was bleeding money, um, partly because shit's just expensive now. But then also because me and my sister were treating her and her sister, and so we were footing the bill for four people, and then also because they like to shop.
I'm not a... I'm a shopper, but I'm not a shopper if that makes sense. Like, if we're shopping, I like to spend money. If I am up, if, if it's up to me of like what to do, like for entertainment, I don't choose shopping. So I was like, I'm not a shopper in that sense, but like you get me shopping and I do like to spend money, and so they love to shop and so it's definitely a little bit more shopping than I've done, uh, ever.
And, uh, while in New York and yeah, my, my checking account was feeling it. So I was happy to come back, but I came back from New York and like hit the ground running, um- I'm-- my Navy guys, they-- it's, like things are ramping up for them, so I've got a lot of those guys. And then I just had other patients to see.
Football season has started, so I had my football player that I needed to fly up to Seattle for. Uh, the online LTAP level one launch is coming up, right? So for the, uh, for the fall cohort. Um, currently, I, as I record this, uh, it's the first day of the pre-sale to the waitlist, so I've been doing things to prepare for that.
And then I'm doing a whole overhaul actually of the online tutorials. Um, and I hired a videographer to, to, to help me. And so Wednesday... I got home from New York City on Monday, and then, um, on Wednesday was a video shoot I had planned for all of this. But in-- of course, because I had, like, zero free, like, time really in my schedule, um, to prepare and to, like, just rest and, like, do all the things.
Tuesday morning, I got a text message from my friend Dom, who's the owner of Gone Whale Watching, the boat that I am a volunteer deckhand for, the whale watching boat. And he texted me, and he said, "If you can, get on the boat," which only ever means one things, uh, which is that the, or there's an- orcas in town.
And so I sat there for, like, two minutes trying to decide what to do, and then I was like, "What? Why am I even waiting?" Like, orcas are here. Get on the boat. And so, um, dropped everything, rearranged the patients I had scheduled for Tuesday so I could get on the boat to see the orcas, and it was a beautiful day.
Unfortunately, we only saw two of them, but I still had a great time. We were on the boat for seven hours. We saw two hammerhead sharks. Um, part of the reason why the orcas are in town, the water temps are really high. We got the, this El Niño pattern, um, coming and, uh, things are weird weather-wise and ocean-wise around here.
T- ocean temp's really warm. Besides the hammerhead sharks we saw, the next day they saw oceanic manta ray, which is so unusual for, um, San Diego. And the last couple days, like, it's currently 90 degrees. 90 degrees at night. Like, it's humid. It's a humid 90 degrees, but it's not, like... It's not, like, as high of humidity as we've been having this summer, but it's 90 degrees, 95 degrees, like, in, in downtown San Diego on September thir- seventh.
Like, what? It feels like we're in Florida, to be 100% honest. Like, I walked to get coffee this morning, and I was like, "Why do I feel like I'm in Tampa?"
Excuse me. Not a good feeling. So anyways, as you can tell by the sweater I'm wearing, I'm ready for fall because after the videography, after the video shoot on Wednesday, flew up to Seattle for football season. The Seahawks have a Monday night g- or not Monday night. Who am I? The Seahawks have the first game of the season, which this year, oddly enough, is a Wednesday night.
So their Monday, Tuesday, like their f- day one and day two of their first official week of football was, um, F- Thursday, Friday. So did that, came back, and then this whole weekend I've had just a ton of patients and then working on the editing, so I'm like literally hitting the ground running. But I still like committed to getting back to the podcast, so I wanted to sit down and record a podcast episode, so here we are.
Thanks for being here. And, um, what I wanna talk about, it came up one of my... Actually one of my whale watching friends, she asked, she's like, "Oh, hey, like I've been having this pain. Could you help me figure out what it is and like how to help it?" And, and she basically described sciatica and, and I, and she, and she knew.
She's like, "I think it's sciatica." And I was like, "Yeah. I... You're not wrong." And, um, because here's the thing, sciatica, though often given a diagnosis, like given as a diagnosis from doctors and physical therapists and athletic trainers, chiropractors, all the people, um, it is a diagnosis that's just telling you what the pain is.
It's not an actual diagnosis of like something wrong. It's a diagnosis of a symptom. So the, the, the definition that comes up when you Google it is basically like, "Sciatica is a pain that radia- radiates from your lower back through your buttocks and down your leg caused by pressure or irritation on the sciatic nerve".
That literally tells you nothing. It's no different than being like, "I have pain right here," and them pointing to their hip and lower leg And so even then, the type of pain can vary, right? It can be sharp pain, it can be a numbness, it can be a weakness, it can be a pain that's always there, it can be a pain that's sometimes there.
Like, it's-- there's no rhyme or reason. So it's a, really is, like, a very blanket term. And so I wanted to talk a little bit about it, um, and about, like, how we can help people that have sciatica, 'cause it's, uh, obviously a very common thing, um, that people get told they have. And, you know, when people... Of course too, when people ask you, like, "Hey, I have this pain.
What should I do for it?" They're hoping you have the answer. And, uh, and the reality is, is it's gonna be different for everybody. It's gonna be different for everyone because of all the reasons that you could have sciatica, right? All the reasons that you could have irritation of the sciatic nerve. The sciatic nerve is actually two nerves in one sheath.
The two nerves that it is, is the tibial nerve and the common per- peroneal nerve. And actually, they come from up closer to the spine, um, something called the lumbosacral trunk, and then that goes into the, um, spinal cord, basically, right? The nerves from the spinal cord. So it's just part of the nervous system.
And so that also tells us that it's like it can, we can have entrapments or irritations to anywhere on the path of that nerve, which would cause the symptoms of sciatica. So the most common causes of sciatica is gonna be, like, herniated disc, right? So when the disc is herniated, whether it's extruded or whether it is just prolapsed, you know, whatever it is, there can be disc material or part of the disc putting pressure on the nerve root, causing symptoms to, that are then called sciatica.
You can get spinal stenosis. Spinal stenosis can be at the actual, um, vertebral column, right? Like the vertebral foramen, where the, the spinal cord and the, and the nerve roots come down first within the, within the spine, or the spinal stenosis can be at the neural foramen level, right? Uh, where the nerve root exits the vertebral column.
Uh, you can have bone spurs that cause the spinal stenosis, or you can have entrapments anywhere around the area where those nerves come out and then through the lower extremity. And so these common entrapments can be, um, the SI joint ligaments itself, the piriformis, the top part of the piriformis, the middle of the piriformis, or the bottom part of the piriformis.
It can be, um, lower down in the leg, uh- Around the, like, just fascia of where, like, glute max attaches to, uh, the IT band. That's a really common spot also to, like, cause some sciatica problems as it sort of pulls the whole sheath over laterally and overstretches the s- the sciatic nerve. Oftentimes it can be restrictions on the opposite leg that is putting an adverse stretch on the s- on the sciatic nerve on the one side.
So, um, you know, each one of those problems can actually have a diagnostic name too, right? So it's like entrapment around the piriformis. It's called piriformis syndrome. Entrapment around, or yeah, entrapment at the neural foramen is called, you know, neural foramen stenosis i- in more of the spinal, um, portions, just spinal stenosis.
From a herniated disc, it's called lumbar radiculopathy, right? So there's multiple reasons for that. And then, you know, and this is, this as a practitioner, right? As you being a physical therapist or athletic trainer or a chiropractor, movement professional, like all of this information I just said is probably not new information to you.
But what I wanted to contrast it with is a couple things. One, I wanna talk about the visceral drivers of it, which I actually will have Joe link in the show notes. I'm, I know I've done at least one, if not two previous episodes on this same kind of topic, talking about sciatic nerve and visceral relationships.
I've talked about it in one episode, uh, regarding the liver and the relationship to the colon, and then I think I just talked about, um, it from a nervous system standpoint too. So I'll make sure that Joe links those in the show notes. But I also wanted to talk about this from a perspective of sometimes actually And this is semantics because I'm like, "Okay, if you're gonna just diagnose this as sciatica, it's a..."
And this is like, I'm like, I hate it when somebody gets this diagnosis because it's such a blanket term that means nothing. Because one of the other things that we have to consider is the referral patterns from SI joint pain, right? And so this is also like a real thing, but then we have to also take a step back even from there of SI joint pain.
Is it SI joint pain because of a true injury to the SI joint, or is it SI joint pain because of irritation to the joint for other reasons, which often are visceral or central nervous system driven, and/or can be peripheral neurovascularly driven, which is kind of like the basis of understanding the foundation of the locator test assessment protocol and how we look at the SI joint as a way to tell us what's going on.
So, the SI joint pain referral patterns basically are based on what nerves innervate the SI joint. I've talked about it many times before, but the SI joint is innervated by five different nerves. That's why it's influenced by so much. Um, it's innervated by the, um, sensory nerves, the cluneal nerves, uh, both the upper cluneal nerves and the lower cluneal nerves, the obturator nerve, the superior gluteal nerve, the nerve to the quadratus femoris, the lumbosacral trunk, and then the sacrospinal nerves.
And so each one of those nerves basically has a different referral pattern in the body. So some common sites of SI joint pain referrals are going to be the lower leg, like outside of the lower leg, like along the fibula, all the way to the lateral side of the foot, down through the pinky toe. It can be, um
It can be the lateral hip and thigh. It can be the anterior hip and groin. It can be the anterior abdomen, right? This is a referral via the obturator nerve and its shared relationship with the hypogastric nerve, right? This type of referral pain often actually mimics visceral pain. And then you can have your classic referral, which is the classic complaint of SI joint pain, which is above like the PSIS, one side of the pelvis.
That can be that's often like cluneal nerves or, um, some of the sacrospinal nerves, that kind of thing. So multiple spots that can be SI joint driven, which also sort of mimic this sciatica, right? So someone can be given the diagnosis sciatica when it's actually SI joint pain referral. Now, here's the thing.
Why does that matter? Well, because you're gonna treat it differently more than likely, but also again, sciatica is a blanket term for pain that's neurally driven down the lower extremity. That's it. It doesn't tell you why or where it's coming from. So technically, sciatica could be a way to describe an SI joint pattern referral, right?
So taking a, a step back and from there, you know, and going back to the visceral and the central nervous system, when, when we look at the SI joint in general, the SI joint in general is a very what Jean-Pierre Barral calls a visceral joint, which means that most of the time, the joint mobility is being affected by something else, driven by something going on in the viscera or the central nervous system.
And this is the whole premise of why I use it as a test in the, um, locator test assessment protocol is because A hypomobile SI joint is sometimes hypomobile only for brief periods of time because of information it's getting from the viscera or the central nervous system, and then mobility is granted back.
And so how this relates to the SI joint pain, most of the time I see SI joint pain being on the side of the pelvis, on the side of the SI joint that moves too much. Or I don't even know if the word too much matters. The SI joint pain is often on the side that moves when there is one side that is moving and one side that's not moving.
And so the not moving side is where we actually want to get moving to distribute the movement load across the pelvis. Right? So most of the time, joints that move too much are the pain generators. This is why people with hypermobility have such commonality of, like, pain in a lot of spots of their body People who are generally stiff don't tend to have a ton of pain.
It's excessive movement tends to be a big pain driver. And so when we look at this from a SI joint standpoint, both of our SI joints, when we're talking about normal locomotion and normal movement, they should be moving, right? They m- they work together. And so when one is not moving, the other one tries to do more than it's supposed to, and then that can often be the driver of pain.
And so we're not gonna treat right where the pain is, we're going to fix the problem of why the pain's there in the first place. So we look back at the hypomobile SI joint. So then we have to ask, is this hypomobile SI joint a structural problem or a strategic problem, a protective reflexive problem from the viscera or the nervous system?
And we do that by adding in a breath hold. We have them hold their breath. Does it change? Does it go from hypomobile to mobile with a breath hold? Then that can be a clue that there's a visceral and a central nerv- and/or a central nervous system driver affecting that mobility. All right? So that could be the culprit of the sciatica, right?
And then it's up to us to use the rest of our assessment to figure out, like, what is it? Is it the central nervous system, right? Is it up in the cranium? Is it up higher in the spine? Is it down low in the spine? Um, or is it a visceral organ? Is it a visceral organ in the neck and thorax, or is it a visceral organ in the abdomen, or a visceral organ in the pelvis?
All are possible areas that could have an effect on changing the mobility of the SI joint, which is going to create the SI joint pain referral on the other side, giving the symptoms of sciatica, right? So that's how it relates to SI joint referral pain in sciatica. We're going to be looking at it through that lens.
And then there's just a basic also connection between sciatica and the visceral connections, meaning from a, um, more local standpoint. So in the podcast I'll have Joe link in the show notes, show notes, we talk about how the liver in the portal vein and its connection to the mesenteric arteries and the large intestine, the sigmoid colon, the q- the descending colon, how when this- Blood flow gets backed up between the colon and the portal vein, and the liver gets congested or vice versa, that portal vein, mesenteric vein gets backed up because the liver is congested and can't handle that influx of fluid.
The colon and the mesentery, right, the mesenteric vein in, within the mesentery, um, or within the mesocolon down in the, um, small intestines and the large intestines around that area get distended. And when they get distended, it mechanically irritates the lumbosacral trunk and the, and the nerves that are inside the pelvic bowl before they've exited to the lower extremity.
So the nerve is already getting irritated, either sensory or a actual entrapment from the distension of this vascular, um, congestion and can cause sciatica. So we see that often. So w- right liver-- right liver. Well, oh, well, I guess that is, that is accurate 'cause the liver does go on the right and the left side.
But on the right side, right, the liver tends to be a driver for left leg sciatica. At the same time, it can cause problems for right leg sciatica, but not for the same reasons, not typically as much for that vascular congestion standpoint. Right-sided sciatica driven by the liver is a little bit more of a, um, SI joint influence, as well as just a dynamic, dynamic alignment influence, right?
Maybe tight hip flexor adding on to the mix, adding onto the irritation of the lumbar plexus and its relationship to the sciatic nerve, right? It can still have a neural driver to it, but it's different than this vascular driver that we see between the liver and the left sciatica, right? So but that's another way to look at the, um, sciatica from a visceral standpoint.
But then we can start playing with where is the sciatic symptoms. And the sciatic symptoms can also be some clues to where visceral drivers might be. So if our sciatic symptoms are more in the foot and the lower leg on that lateral side, then the lateral side of the foot is more associated with the intestines, so we can look to the intestines.
The ascending colon, the descending colon, or the small intestines, and the duodenum tends to be, like, the biggest drivers there. If the sciatica is more around the knee area, th- the knee is associated more with the urogenital organs, so kidneys b- and bladder and ovaries, uterus, or prostate So we can look to rule those out.
If the sciatica is around the hip, now we're thinking, um, back to kidneys, intestines, bladder, pelvic organs, basically. Um, liver, stomach. A lot of... Hips can be a lot of different visceral things, but those are kind of like the general ones. And it's sometimes not sided, right? Like, and what I mean by sided is, like, it doesn't mean, like, if there's a stomach issue, it's gonna be left side symptoms.
Nope. It could be right side, right? It's not so, um organized like that. Um, but then the other sciatica symptoms, groin pain. Groin pain, um, anterior hip, to me that is much more kidney. That's much more obturator nerve, maybe duodenum a little bit, but probably if it is duodenum, it's the relationship between the duodenum and the kidneys.
Um, but that's a way to look at these patterns from a visceral standpoint too is like be like, "Okay, I'm going to recognize that sciatica is just a name for pain in your leg, so now I'm gonna actually look at where's the pain in your leg and what are the common visceral referrals for that part of the leg?"
Right? So this is how we walk ourselves back from that standpoint too. And we can do the same thing with peripheral neurovascular entrapments too. So piriformis syndrome, which is a really common, um, driver of sciatica, that would be categorized as a peripheral neurovascular entrapment-driven sciatica. But the piriformis is not the only spot that we can have a peripheral entrapment of the sciatic nerve or branches of the sciatic nerve, which are the tibial nerve and the common peroneal nerve, but branches off of those.
We can have entrapment sites all throughout the leg causing some of these similar symptoms to classic sciatica. So we are looking at, again, the lateral side of the leg. We're gonna look at common peroneal nerve entrapment up at the proximal fibula. Um, the common tibial nerve entrapments just like superior to the popliteal fossa where the hamstrings sort of split.
Piriformis is a big one. The ischial or the sacrotuberous ligament is a big spot for entrapment of some cutaneous nerves and the pudendal nerve, which can irrit-- like go back like a level and irritate the whole sciatic nerve. Uh, you can have superior ner- superior gluteal nerve, um, entrapment, and that can mimic that wrapping around the hip pain of sciatica.
Um, you can have obturator nerve entrapment at the obturator, um, foramen there or within the fascia of the adductors. And, and again, those are like the most common places to have these, um, sciatica-type symptoms. But, um, around the knee, typically sciatica symptoms around the knee are gonna be lateral. So that lateral around the knee is gonna be the peroneal nerve again, sural nerve.
It's gonna be the geniculate branches, uh, that going, are going to the knee, and those come off of the posterior nerves, the tibial nerve, common peroneal nerve. So it's gonna take you back to that posterior side or that proximal tib-fib joint. So, um Really big piece there. And then finally, um, you know, more traditional types of sciatica coming from the spine are gonna be that neural foramen, um, entrapment from perhaps some sort of stenosis of, or bone spur.
But what I see most commonly is a n-um, neural foramen sort of entrapment because the nerve as it's exiting the neural foramen is, um, getting adverse tension or adverse stretch on it because the actual whole spinal cord is not descending in the spinal column as well as it needs to because of tension higher up in the cranium.
So there's a central nervous system tension pattern driving that neural foramen, um, entrapment or stenosis type of lumbar radiculopathy pain, which really then is like some people look at that and like, "Oh, I have disc issues." And I'm like, "Actually, no, your disc is probably fine. It's just the spinal cord is not descending enough.
And so that nerve root is getting like overstretched as it goes around the corner as it exits the neural foramen." And if we can fix the tension up in the central nervous system, um, cranial area, then all of a sudden now the spinal cord can descend in the column a little bit better, and it frees up that corner that the peripheral nerves need to go around, um, as they exit the neural foramen.
And then now no adverse ten- no adverse stretch means decreased nerve tension means decreased symptoms in the leg. So those are-- that's how we-- that's how I look at it, right? This is how I look at sciatica. Once I'm like, hmm, first like sciatica, a blanket term, that doesn't mean anything to me. Basically, I'm like, okay, you have pain that seems like neurally driven somewhere in your lower extremity.
My job is then to determine is it coming from the SI joint? Is it coming from the viscera? Is it coming from the nervous-- the central nervous system, or is there a peripheral neurovascular entrapment? And this is where the LTAP really shines because it's answering all of those questions. And, and yes, the visceral referral cheat sheet is helpful here because like I talked about, some of those areas of the leg are common visceral referral patterns.
But remember, oftentimes we can have a visceral protection pattern somewhere not related to that referral pattern, and it just changes our dynamic alignment enough that then we have these mechanical changes causing all of these different, um, symptoms in our lower extremity too. So this is why that just the visceral referral cheat sheet is sort of like not enough.
It's helpful. It's a great place to start. But the locator test assessment protocol really provides us the tool s-to see where this, that person, your patient's driver is coming from. So- Hopefully that's helpful. to sort of organize your thoughts around sciatica versus SI joint referral versus visceral referrals versus lumbar disc issues versus stenosis, those kind of things.
Can we also still have that going on? Yeah, lumbar disc thing and, um, actual true stenosis, absolutely. But we wanna refer-- or, or not refer, we wanna rule out all these other things before we just send somebody for an MRI or send somebody back to the doctor for like epidurals and like more of those type of surgical things or stenosis surgery.
What we want to really know that we've ruled out all these other things and it's like, yep, that makes sense that that is the driver of it. So that's it for now. We'll see you next week. Thanks for being here.