Why Fascia Matters in Lymphatic Drainage with Leah Levitan
When we think about lymphatic drainage, we tend to focus on moving fluid out of an area. But what about the fascial restrictions, pressure changes, and nervous system responses that influence how that fluid moves?
In this episode of the Unreal Results podcast, I'm joined by Leah Levitan of The Lymph Love Club to explore the relationship between fascia and the lymphatic system and why it matters for manual therapy.
Leah shares how she's moved beyond traditional lymphatic drainage protocols to integrate myofascial release, lymphatic techniques, and nervous system regulation into her treatments. We also discuss the importance of the head, neck, and thoracic inlet, the differences between superficial and deep lymphatics, and how self-treatment can make us better practitioners.
Plus, Leah walks me through her five-phase head and neck lymphatic drainage routine, demonstrating how these systems can be addressed together.
In this episode, you'll learn:
How fascia and lymphatics interact and why it matters for treatment
Why improving fascial mobility may support lymphatic circulation
How to move beyond rigid lymphatic drainage protocols
How to integrate fascial work, lymphatic drainage, and self-treatment
One of my favorite things about this conversation is how it reinforces that we don't always need another technique or protocol. Sometimes, we just need a better understanding of how the systems we're already treating work together.
Resources & Links Mentioned In This Episode:
Learn more about the Lymph Love Club here!
Connect with Leah on Instagram
Learn the LTAP® In-Person in one of my upcoming courses
Considering the viscera as a source of musculoskeletal pain and dysfunction is a great way to ensure a more true whole body approach to care, however it can be a bit overwhelming on where to start, which is exactly why I created the Visceral Referral Cheat Sheet. This FREE download will help you to learn the most common visceral referral patterns affecting the musculoskeletal system. Download it at www.unrealresultspod.com
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Anna Hartman: Hey there, and welcome. I'm Anna Hartman, and this is Unreal Results, a podcast where I help you get better outcomes and gain the confidence that you can help anyone, even the most complex cases. Join me as I teach about the influence of the visceral organs and the nervous system on movement, pain, and injuries, all while shifting the paradigm of what whole body assessment and treatment really looks like.
I'm glad you're here. Let's dive in
Uh, hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode of the "Unreal Results" podcast. I have a special guest on today. I'm super excited. Um, my friend Leah Levitan. She is a, um, lymphatic specialist. She-- You might recognize her from Instagram, The Lymph Love Club. Um, sort of went... I feel like you went viral for the anatomy reels, the talking anatomy reels, which I loved because I always give anatomy, like, a personality, and so I'm like, "Oh my gosh, she's doing what I do," and I love that.
Um, so welcome. Thank you for being here. Oh my gosh, thank you. It's so awesome to connect with somebody that I just... I love to be around people that inspire me, that are doing really cool shit, so thanks for having me. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. And, um, I was trying to think, like, I can't remember if we, like, actually met at the Fascia Research Congress or I just saw you and knew you were there or, like...
I'm like, how do we know each other? We, uh, we were like ships passing in the night. Ships in the night? Yes. Mm-hmm. Like, I knew who you were. I was following you on- Oh, gotcha ... social media. Yeah, so. Um, but I don't know that we had really talked much. Mm-hmm. But I had checked out your podcast and I was like, "Okay.
Leah Levitan: This gal"- Nice. Nice ... she's doing cool stuff. You're like, yes, yes. Yeah. And so that- I love that ... came after our Fascia Research Congress. Mm-hmm. So fun. I'm like, I am the worst at conferences because I'm super introverted, so I'm like- I'm like, "I'm not gonna talk unless somebody talks to me." Which is funny, people who meet me from a work standpoint, they're like, "You're introverted?
Anna Hartman: Are you sure?" And I'm like, "Uh, yes." Put me in a social setting and I'm definitely introverted. But, um, either way, I'm glad we finally connected, and I'm glad we that-- we share the love of anatomy and fascia and all the things. And I mean, and that's where I'm sure too, like, I would love to pick your brain about those connections.
You know, like, I love that the fascia is getting a little, like it's finally getting its day in the sun, I feel like, um, as well as lymphatic stuff, and there's such a merge between the two. And I know you and Jill just came out, um, recently with a course, um, together, Jill Miller from, uh, Tune Up Fitness, and so I would love for you to talk about that.
And, you know, like with Neil Theise's work of the interstitium, like there's just a lot of exciting things, I think, about like health and lymphatic stuff and fascia all sort of merging together. And, um, yeah, so let's just chit-chat on that. Um, but first too- Sounds good ... like let everybody know sort of like what you do and how you practice and like, um, are you seeing clients too or is it just education?
Like what, what are you doing? Tell us a, about that. Well, what am, what am I doing? Mm-hmm. Oh, man. Well, um, for those that aren't familiar with me, I'm a licensed massage therapist and have been for the last 10 years, and I'm based out of Austin, Texas. So I do have a clinic here in Austin. We have a couple amazing, uh, massage therapists, occupational therapists, lymphedema therapists, and we really specialize in lymphatics and women's health and just like complex diseases, so, or like conditions.
Leah Levitan: Yeah. And the lymphatic and fascia and nervous system piece are so powerful. Mm-hmm. And yeah, so I'm doing a little bit of hands-on stuff and running the clinic here in Austin, and then yeah, there's this like virtual lymph love club. All right. And, um, you know, a lot of the ways that we approach our, uh, body work at Align Massage here in Austin is it's like centered around self-care.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm. And so I teach a lot of that self-care that I teach to my clients that are dealing with X, Y, and Z using therapy balls or long fascial stretching. Maybe you might think of it as like yin yoga, just like a whole- Mm-hmm ... a held posture with joint alignment for like that elongation. Mm-hmm. And, and it's a lot of like nervous system stuff too.
Leah Levitan: It's like, how do we teach people to be in their body and maybe not answer all of their questions, but to help some of them go away? So- Yeah ... it is a lot of like client resources, but we also have a group of therapists and practitioners or like movement people in the community as well. And so there's like a little, you know, section of the community that's sort of ther- you know, therapist-centered.
It's like, how do you work on people? What do- Right ... how do you get away from this structured lymphatic drainage certification that you got? Mm-hmm. Like, 'cause I had to unlearn a lot of stuff. I got- Oh, I'm sure ... I got certified in, uh, the Vodder method. Um- Mm-hmm ... I forget when, but it was like right at the, right when COVID was dropping out.
I thought- Oh ... "Man, they're gonna cancel this course." But I was- Yeah ... able to take it, and um, and then from there I probably did that for... I followed the rules for about, you know, six months, eight months, and- Yeah ... was seeing really incredible things with the lymphatic work, and then there was also s- a lot of cases where I'm like, "Why am I like not able to move the needle for these folks?"
Mm-hmm. So I knew that there was more to it, and that's when I started kinda building a more unique, uh, well, I don't even wanna say unique. People have come before us. There's nothing original here. Yeah. No. Um, but just- Same ... putting it together in a way that made sense. Yeah, and making it your own sort of thing, like- Yeah
Anna Hartman: which I love. And, and I think there's, you know, and what you probably can speak to, too, there's so much value in like learning, learning the technique, how it is, like following the rules for a while, like to, to understand. Like we, we learn the, the techniques, we learn the, the rules in order to understand the principles really well, and then when we understand that, then we can like, "Okay, now we can break the rules," and then- Then we can break 'em.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, and that's what I'm all about, too, and, um- I-- So I love to hear that about you. Like, I, I also, Vodder technique was my, like, intro into lymphatic, um, drainage. I'm not, I'm not, um, I've not gone to the course or, like, certified in it, but one of the massage therapists I worked with early on in my career, he went to the course, and then that was back in the day where it's like, if any of us went to a course, we'd come back and do, like, an in-service and teach everybody what we learned.
And so he taught us, like, the general sort of rules of, like, the technique and, like, the different body parts, like where we start and, like, how many times we do things and, and same thing. Like, I'm like, wow, we would see such great results with it from a swelling reduction, um, standpoint after, um, you know, when our s- when our p-patients would come in or our athletes would come in after injury or surgery, we would always do it, and it was just, like, so cool and, and such a dichotomy for him too, 'cause he was, like, a very sports, deep tissue-based therapist.
So to see him, like, totally switch- Ah ... into this soft- Effleurage. ... touch. Yes. Like, this very superficial, like, skin stretching technique was, I think my-- the athletes were like, "What? You can touch people that lightly?" But then also, like, for him to be open to that and then see the power in it was, like, really cool.
Um, and then yeah, from there, like, you know, I still, every once in a while, I'll still go back to it. Um, but most of the time, yeah, I have, like, bastardized it and, like, made it my own and, like, yeah, implemented a bunch of other things around it too, so. Let me guess- I love to hear that you do that ... you're not counting anymore.
Yes. Exactly. I mean, I still, sometimes I get in the one, like, I'm like, "Oh yeah, 18, 18 pumps at the clavicle there." So, um, I love that. Um, I love that background too, and I didn't realize that that was when you started it, so what a, what a funny... What COVID, what a funny time. So I get a lot of massage therapists that come in through the LTAP, um, and they kind of- I think, you know, speaking to that, like they're either like trained in one way of like traditional massage, like starting at the head and then like working their way through the sequence, or they are lymphatic trained and they wanna go through this whole thing and, um, like what kind of-- I guess, can you share a little bit of like your current, like Leah's approach now when you see a patient?
Like, and how, like do you, do you have your own kind of like sequence now, or do you really like listen to the body in the sense of like figuring out where to start or like how do you, like how do you organize it all that, with all of that? And like knowing that you wanna do like self-care education with them and then also like, um, the nervous system stuff, like how do you bring it all together now?
Leah Levitan: Oh, that's such a great question, and I feel like there's so many, um, pieces of information that are kind of coming in as I'm like, "What am I about to do?" I usually- Yeah ... get a, a rough idea about whether I wanna start somebody supine or prone. Mm-hmm. Like I don't know how it might go. A lot of times I'll start them face up just knowing that all the fluid pipes are on the front and then they, they need a lot more lymphatic work versus like structural.
So if it feels like, man, something's just not moving in their body, I suspect there's just like a blockage or, you know, poor range of motion in certain parts of the pelvis or the shoulder. I'm like, "Okay, I need to make sure that there's some articulation happening between the joints." And I, I will-- It's funny because I will often, um, start with that.
Mm-hmm. Like I'll start with the freeing up the fascial layers, so I will maybe use like some John Barnes myofascial release, just like long holds. I use very little like lotion or oil. Mm-hmm. And so I just wanna, like, make the tissue more receptive. And I think it's really interesting because I noticed that, uh, Dr.
Perry, who is, like, one of my mentors and really got me into this and got the fire in my belly stoked- Mm-hmm ... um, I noticed that he'll do lymphatics first. He'll clear it first instead of doing fascial work first. But I, I don't- Yeah ... know if that's, um, just, like, a difference in, like, the amount of time that a chiropractor will do, like, soft tissue work, whereas, like, I'm doing all soft tissue work mostly.
Right. And so there's maybe some joint manipulation, but it's gentle. And, um, and so that's how I approach it, is fascia first and then lymphatics. And I will spend a lot of time on the head and neck- Mm-hmm ... um, just releasing the suboccipitals, a lot of, like, vagus stimulation and just kind of, like, trying to get them down-- like, get them down-regulated and open and flowy.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm. And the traditional, like, Vodder approach for just, like, a full sequence supine starting with the head and neck, it seems like such a sliver of time. Mm-hmm. So I do a lot-- It's a lot more lymphatics in the head and neck. Mm-hmm. A lot, a lot. And sometimes I'll work inside their mouth. Okay. So I'm kind of assessing the local nervous system there, because there is a lot of, like, postural, you know, breathing stuff- Absolutely
Leah Levitan: and jaw tension. We gotta, like, make sure that the collarbones are even-- uh, just, like, that thoracic inlet is even able to- Mm-hmm ... receive fluid. Mm-hmm. So I usually will really hone in on the thoracic inlet. I will really hone in on, like, the diaphragm and ribcage, like what's happening here. The shoulder girdle, I really wanna make sure that the SC and AC joint are moving freely, and I might even do some subscap work where I'm getting in between the scapula and ribcage, because, like, all those lymph nodes down there, like, all throughout the entire upper quadrant, it just-- To kind of just work the side and just work the bicep feels like, "No, we gotta, like, we gotta get into pec minor.
What's happening in there?" Yeah. So- Yeah ... there is a deep layer of my drainage approach, and then there's that- Mm-hmm ... superficial layer. Mm-hmm. And I'll usually start deeper, and then I kind of, okay, I'm, I'm getting that- Yeah ... last line of dust in the dustpan. Yeah. Because if we can just, like, free it up a little bit, that helps them move better throughout the day- Absolutely
throughout their day-to-day life. Um, and then h- and then teaching some sort of self-care that- Like fosters that at home. So maybe- Yeah ... it's like a flexible Pilates ball, like the- Mm-hmm ... Coregeous ball that Jill Miller has. Mm-hmm. The class that we did together, you mentioned it. I might have them do, you know, some like breathing into that ball, all the way around their ribcage, all- Okay
maybe up i- into the, into like the axilla, sort of scap- like, like a spatula scooping the breast- Yeah ... tissue away. Um, abdominal stuff, and maybe like some hip mobility, spine stuff. Really just depends. Yeah. But it helps. Yeah. It helps a ton. Yeah. And then- I mean, I think- ... they're like, "Wow, you're so good at what you do."
I'm like, "It's also the homework that you're doing." Yeah. It's like your body's so good at what it does. It's mostly that, yeah. Exactly. I'm like, "Mm, I'm kinda just tinkering here," like- Yeah ... it's actually really- We, we hung out for an hour. Mm-hmm. I love that. I mean, I think, um, I talk about this in my course a lot.
Anna Hartman: Um, well, I mean, not a lot. I talk about it in more of the advanced courses in my mentorship, but the, I mean, the neck, like the fascial containers in the neck and like the, their continuity into the mediastinum and the thorax. I was like, "Yeah, I think it's just- so powerful. It's like I've kind of-- Well, I've come full circle in the sense of like, you know, I used to, even Barral is like, doesn't necessarily like treat the neck a lot, but what he means by that is he's, he's not treating the cervical spine.
And I feel like I don't really treat the cervical spine either, in the sense of like, I used to not touch anybody's neck because it was kinda like you'll always make somebody feel better if you touch their, put, touch their neck because of like all of this, all of the nerves and things associated with the neck are just also just very like down-regulating.
And so sometimes you get a false sense of, did I actually help them? Um, like did I actually move the needle on the thing that's driving the pain, or did I just love on them for an hour and like, of course they felt better, right? And so, um, you know, early on in my career, I had heard that from somebody, like, "Oh, 80% of the time you touch somebody's neck, they're gonna feel better."
You don't necessarily fix what they're, what the problem was. Um, and this is, you know, specifically when it comes to neck pain. But, um, I've come full circle in a sense of like, once I've understand the fascial containers and the nervous system, I'm like, actually, why wouldn't I use that to my advantage of like down-regulating their nervous system and then understanding like how much of a huge...
You know, it's hard to actually treat the fascia of the rib cage because the ribs are like all the bony hard frame. But it's like when we treat the fascia of the neck, we are treating the soft frame of the, um, thoracic spine. And so it's like, actually it's such a wonderful tool to be able to do that. And so the difference is like, yes, I still don't go in and do a lot of work specific to the cervical spine, but I definitely think there's so much value to be doing in the cervical fascia and the different layers of the cervical fascia, the, you know, and then the lymphatics in the head and neck and kinda like what you're saying, like open up the thoracic inlet, I think is, that is like such high payoff for so much stuff.
Yeah. Um, I recently, even in my own body, um, I started doing... I can't even remember like why I started doing it. It might've been just for my eye health with which was a whole thing with, I, I had severe pink eye two years ago, and so I'm always like obsessed around my eye health. Um, or I had a cold. I don't know what I did, but I decided to start doing like daily, um, lymphatic work on my own, but around-- Like really I was targeting like thoracic inlet and neck, and I noticed that, um, some Achilles pain that I was, have been having for years, like went away.
And I was like, "Yeah." And I knew the Achilles pain was lymphatic, like congestion driven, so it's like it wasn't surprising that that happened, but it was also like, whoa, that's really p- powerful because when I look at the whole, like my whole swelling reduction protocol, yes, the next part of it, but it's not the focus and it's like that's literally all I did and it made such a huge impact on everything.
And I, I do think it is a combination of, one, you're unclogging that main drain, but then two, you're also like having such an effect on like the diaphragm via those fascial containers and then like, then the, your breath changes and you move better and then you get the support and the pumping of the movement too.
And so I'm like, yeah, it's just such a high payoff thing. And I think it's cool too, like you're saying from a self-care standpoint, I think it's like really low-hanging fruit for people. It's easy. It's right there. You don't need a lot of like props necessarily to do it. And like, you know, it's reachable.
You're not asking somebody to do like work on their foot or their calf. You're just like, "Oh, you know, use your hands or maybe a quarters ball or something like that, um, around your clavicles and your, um, neck," and like that's it. It doesn't take an hour. It takes like maybe 10 minutes. Yeah. And this makes me think of just, I mean, going back to the continuity of the body, it's like, uh, Tom Myers' anatomy trains- Mm-hmm
Leah Levitan: has kind of helped create that visual of like, oh yeah, just your feet are- Everything's connected. ... connected to your face. Yeah. Oh, who would've thought? And there's so much that you can tell from someone's face. Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, I feel like in traditional Chinese medicine, it's like all the meridians kind of- Mm-hmm
you know, come up and- Yeah ... and there's- Up and around the head ... there's something there too, a little energetics. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, excuse me. Um- I think it's in-- You know, you said too how, um, you thought it was interesting how Dr. Perry, like how he approaches it, like he do- he does it first and then you do the last with the lymphatic thing, and I think that's super interesting too because it also brings up the difference, and he-- I know he's talked about it a little bit too, but the difference between like the deep lymphatics and the superficial lymphatics.
Anna Hartman: Um, can you speak to that a little bit in terms of like what the difference is between the two and like why you would wanna target one over the other? Yeah. Well, in regards to the superficial lymphatics, we're basically just talking about the superficial fascial system, right? So the superficial- Mm-hmm
Leah Levitan: fascia, that like fluffy, yellow, fatty outer layer that acts as a shock absorber and cushion and insulation and all the cool stuff. Mm-hmm. And that is like, you know, just such a majority of the lymphatics that are sort of generated because those capillaries are just cast across the skin like, you know, chicken wire and it's all woven- Mm-hmm
between the superficial fascial fibers that like micro... So we're just thinking more like fascia on a microscopic level. Mm-hmm. Um, and so like skin and adipose are being drained by the superficial, but then it's like anything that dives into that deeper layer that like now we're in the muscular layer, so it's kind of pulling fluid from the surface of the skin and bringing it down into deeper, deeper, larger, larger channels.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And while I love the idea of the, just that peripheral, the peripheral nerve fibers kind of woven into the outer layer and mobilizing that and getting that two-directional stretch, if you're listening and you're not really sure like with the lymphatic technique of like kind of creating a little bit of a shear- Mm-hmm
Leah Levitan: where you're moving the skin in one direction and then also in another direction which is supposed to open the endothili- the endothelial cell, which are only one cell, cell layer thick. They're woven into the fibers, like the fascial fibers- Mm-hmm ... are woven into the vessels, and so you stretch that skin and it pops open some entry points.
And so because the lymphatics are lower pressure- Mm-hmm ... sort of pulls that fluid in. So there always needs to be a pressure change that happens. And for me, I just, when I do fascia first- Um, or like, um, not necessarily superficial fascia, but more like- Yeah, yeah. More of the myofascial ... liga- like ligament stuff.
Mm-hmm. Sheets of fascia. I just think about that shearing and that softening and that like sh- shifting that gel-like state to a more fluid state. Mm-hmm. And so that thixotropic nature of our connective tissue, I just want... I, like, want those layers to move better to get, like, better that way during the entire rest of the treatment, the body is kind of maybe doing things on a different level.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. It's almost- If that makes sense ... uh, the way you're kind of explaining it almost makes me feel like, you know, going back to sort of like the classic like pipe thing of like if we l- think about the big lymph and vein, like venous structures as pipes throughout our body. Like, and yeah, like if one of the, like at the neck, like if it's clogged up, then it can't drain.
It's almost like that in a more, um, stacked, like layer cake kind of standpoint of like the, the skin to the, to fascia. And I could see how, yeah, doing the myofascial work first and getting, uh, the- Get some blood flow in there. Yeah, the blood flow and the, like the interstitial- The warmth ... fluid, like moving.
Yeah. Yeah, like make it more hydrated, but then that creates that pressure gradient too that can help bring things out of the superficial fascia. 'Cause, and I do wonder too, and maybe you see this clinically when you work on people, you know, traditionally in Vodder, like y- they're told like, you're, you know, you as a patient and you're told like, "Well, you wanna do like five sessions consecutively, like, you know, every week, y- your initial five.
And during those five sessions or six sessions, whatever it is, like plan to feel like crap sort of for part of it," like the detox phase of like... And I almost wonder like if that's a little bit of what's going on, is that you're moving all of this lymphatic fluid in the superficial field level, but then there's nowhere for it to go necessarily 'cause you didn't create that pressure gradient and that, that movement within the deeper fascia for it to sort of like sink through the system, I guess, into the, the deeper layers of it.
Um, does that kinda make sense? Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. That's like one theory. We're- Yeah. It's like- Yeah, I'm sure you have a really good theory ... do we ever really know what we're doing? No. There's- No, I don't. I don't at all ... there's only so much. There's only so much- Yeah ... that we, uh, can be certain of, and it's- Yeah
Leah Levitan: I, that's why I'm like there's no wrong answer. It's like- No ... if you're, if you just like care a lot and you're curious and you're trying to tune in with what the body in front of you is telling you, like I just, you know, if I'm sitting at the head of the table looking down at somebody's body and like their shoulders are just like anteriorly rotated, they're not even touching the table- Mm-hmm
I press on one shoulder. I like compress and compress and pump the collarbones just to create, again, creating that change of pressure. And you know, sometimes- Yeah ... they move really freely, and then sometimes it's like- Yeah ... "Ugh," it's not moving. Yeah. So maybe I might- Yeah ... just see that's where I might come in and do like a suboccipital hold to be like, "Let's just like take this down a notch a little bit."
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Yeah. Let's see, like is this guarding or is this actual like stiffness? Yeah. Or both? Mm-hmm. And you'd mentioned, uh, like- Doing, you know, not really working the cervical spine necessarily, but just like everything around it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, I will often do just like a little bit of a gentle traction if it's safe for them, if there's no cervical- Mm-hmm
Leah Levitan: like, fu- fusions or anything. Mm-hmm. And that just kinda creates like a little bit of like, just like a little bit of space between the structures- Yeah ... of the bones and like the discs. Mm-hmm. And just, it's all-- For me, I'm just always visualizing, like, where can I bring fluid into this tissue? Where can I- Mm-hmm
support that fluid exchange? Because circulation is so local. Yeah. You know? Like, we like to think about the cardiovascular system as the big, right? It's just like, oh, our heart pumping blood. Yeah. Um, but man, blood can't get to the individual cells. I mean, the heart- Yeah ... can't pump the blood to the individual cells, so it's like- Yeah, right
we gotta figure out how we can create more local circulation. That's- Mm-hmm ... drainage to me. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I mean, and you, like you said, like it's more about circulation than I think drainage, too. I think sometimes like people I mean, this is what I, I share with people about my swelling reduction protocol is like, I've seen it just as powerful as like a protocol to do to support healing as it is any swelling.
Anna Hartman: Like it's just like non-union fractures I've had people, you know, and I, I employ the, that protocol to improve blood flow, im- improve lymphatic flow and it's like their healing is so much better. And you said it like, yeah, if the, if it's not draining it's also probably not just, it's not getting any blood flow in or out.
And so we get so focused on the out and I'm like it's also sometimes the in that's so important. And also again going back to what you're saying too with like the pressure changes and like the gradients like again the lymphatics and the, the vas- uh, the venous system just doesn't have a pump and so like, you know, relying even on the relationship between the arteries and the improved blood flow can help that whole...
I'm like what is it? Like a whole like symbiotic relationship. You can't have one without the other sort of thing, right? Yeah. It's the estuary. It's where the- Yeah ... the river meets the ocean. Yes. I love that. Yeah. That is exactly what it is. Um, I mean have you noticed, um, you know, have you noticed at all of doing your approach adding in the, the other fascial pieces, do you, when people are new to lymphatic work do you feel like you're noticing them having less of that detox kind of feeling or is it pretty individualized still?
Leah Levitan: Yeah. Well it's interesting that you ask that because it wasn't something that I'd like particularly thought too much about in the beginning. Mm-hmm. You know? Like I would just sort of hit people with a bus of like- Yeah ... here's one hour of manual lymphatic drainage and nothing else. Yeah. Like, you know, you get people in with like I just, a lot of our clients have, uh, that genetic mutation MTFR, MTHFR- Uh-huh
the motherfucking gene. Uh-huh. Yeah. And so it's like their body is detoxing in a different way. It's a slower- Mm-hmm ... detoxification and so those bodies tend to hold on to like more metabolic waste and so- Mm ... you can't really just like crank it up. We're just gonna like go full throttle," or people with autoimmune conditions, like- Yeah
there's just plenty of good reasons not to hit somebody with a one-hour manual lymphatic drainage session. Yeah. But I do feel like there's less of that, like extreme. People will still have detox symptoms, um, but they- Yeah ... are usually very mild. You know, we can expect to see an increase in urine production.
We can expect- Mm-hmm ... for somebody to be like, "I had the most amazing bowel movement." I get- Yeah ... a lot of text messages about my, my client's poop, and that's great. Yeah. Or I might ask, but Yeah. Um, but usually it's just like a little fatigue. It takes energy for the body to detoxify, and so liver, organs, kid- kidneys, skin, lungs.
I've had people- Mm-hmm ... have all kinds of unique, um- Yeah ... excrements shared. Yeah. I'm sure. That's funny. Yep. We all get those text messages. "Uh, is this normal?" Uh, sure. Just don't send me a picture and we'll be fine. Yeah, and we're good. Um, I kinda feel like, um... and maybe this is because I'm like new to it or like new-ish to it, I guess.
Anna Hartman: I mean, yes and no. I, I've known about Vodder technique and lymphat work my, literally my whole career for like 20 plus years. But I feel like it's still the Wild West a little bit of like unknown territory and like need to research and like even with the thought process of like what to do during like if someone has cancer or an illness, like how you navigate that because it's like, oh, it's contraindicated, but yet it's like body wide, so it's, it's so like...
I- am I, am I accurate in the fact that it's like we still don't know? It's almost like the brain. We still don't know a lot about what's going on with the lymphatics.
Leah Levitan: It's true. I mean, we're learning a lot fast, right? Like it's just- Mm-hmm ... it feels like it's all kinda coming down the pipe. Um, LEARN, there's a particular- Mm-hmm
nonprofit called LEARN, and they do a lot of really cool, um- I guess you could call them like workshops or they're just free and open to the public and they-
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm ...
Leah Levitan: upload everything to YouTube and they have these incredible resources where experts are there sharing their research or doctors are, you know, sharing their observations and I think that's where we're learning the most, right?
It's just like I don't know, trusting our clients, getting their feedback, and y- just safety first always.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Leah Levitan: But I think there's gotta be-- Yeah, you say Wild West. It's like, yeah, there's gotta be a little bit of like, do we wanna try this? We've tried- Yeah ... everything else. Or-
Anna Hartman: Yeah ...
Leah Levitan: you know, most of the time when people come find me in my office, they've seen a lot of different people, and so it's like the lymphatic- Right.
Sure ... piece is like the last piece. And then they come in and they're like, "Oh, I thought it was gonna be painful," because all the crazy stuff they see online of like body- Yeah ... contouring and like sculpting and deep abdominal Brazilian or Mayan, you know, there's so many different types of- Yeah ... lymphatic out there.
So- Mm-hmm ... it's hard to know which one is the right one to choose, and I think the clinical approach is great for highly sensitive bodies. But we know now, um, I'm a lymphedema therapist. I don't do, uh, like the compression bandaging per se. We don't- Mm-hmm ... keep those supplies in our office. Um- Mm-hmm ... just as a massage therapist, it's almost like, is that even in my, within my scope of practice?
That's another gray area- Right ... question mark for Texas. It's like- Yeah ... can I even do compression bandaging? I don't know. So- Right ... I know a lot of massage therapists that have gone on to become nurses so that they can do wound care, they can do compression, you know, it's just, it feels like a, a good step forward in that direction if you wanna work with those- Mm-hmm
clients.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Leah Levitan: Um, but you can do lymphatic, um, throughout cancer treatment, but it's not like a universal yes. It's like case by case- Yeah ... for sure.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, I, I went to the, one of the Fascia Research Congresses I went to, um, years ago, I think it was the 2015 one. They also did a adjunct day later in the year, um, with, it was like a, a, um, um, collaborative conf-conference, fascia, oncology, and acupuncture.
Leah Levitan: Ooh.
Anna Hartman: And there was some conversation and studies that they were sharing of like, like, yes, lymphatic might even be like, you know, like... It was like basically showing some research that was like, hmm, maybe we shouldn't be avoiding it in the area of the cancer because it can be helpful.
Leah Levitan: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: And I think it's just like, yeah, it's a tough, it, it's a tough, I mean, science and research are so tough anyways because it's, one, especially when it's not pharmaceutical-based and there's no money behind it, it's hard to get the funding to do the research.
But then two, when it comes to like people's actual life, like you're like, "Ugh." And, but als-also if people do these things and they get better then the doctors are like, "Oh, good for you," and they never think to like, "Well, let's study why, what happened," or you know what I mean? There's like, it's, it's just an interesting...
It's just interesting and it makes me curious of like how much power there could be in, in this work if we just had a way to like research it better or like approach it better. And I mean, I'm sure that's like that with a lot of different things in the world, but it's like some of the, some of the, um, research they were sharing is like really promising, and I think if, you know, I always kinda think about like what would I do if I got sick?
Like if I had cancer, like would I be curious to try it or would I- I know what I'd do ... be like apprehensive? Yeah. Yeah. I know what I'd want to do. I'm sure I know what you would do. I know, and that actually, I... So interesting enough, um, you know, I had, I had shingles, or I'm still having the shingles. I'm, I'm still having shingles.
Yeah. I, I don't know how, like, when you s- when you decide shingles is done. But I got shingles, like, three weeks ago, and, um, my, my lymph on my... I got it on my head.
Leah Levitan: It's
Anna Hartman: really on my- Oh, did your s- ... oh, optic nerve ... did
Leah Levitan: your lymph nodes just like...
Anna Hartman: Oh my gosh. So,
Leah Levitan: like- I'm so sorry ... you know, like- I know how, like-
Anna Hartman: rice
Leah Levitan: nodules, like ... insanely painful shingles is, so I am just-
Anna Hartman: Yeah ... sending you- Like, everybody kept telling me that ... love And I'm like, it was... No. L- luckily, like, it's been, like, not too bad. Um, but I was, like, very paranoid of it going in my eye because it was going towards my eye of the, in the... That was the eye that I had the severe pink eye in, and I was like, "I cannot deal with another eye thing, like- Oh
infection." And so I was just, like, very paranoid, and it, like, one, like, the day I saw a rash here and it started on my eyebrow and I was like, "No." And that was also the day that my lymph felt the most clogged, and I decided, I'm like, "I'm... I know it's contraindicated." I was like, "But I'm gonna do some lymph drainage," because I actually feel like...
I felt like, okay, my lymph's doing its job, but I feel like it's getting congested. And I was like, I want the best blood flow in there to be, like, fighting this. Mm. And so I was like, I'm gonna make the conscious decision to, the, to do it. Oh, actually it was before it was on my forehead. It was like, it started here on my scalp, and it got to the edge of my scalp, and I was like, "Oh gosh, it's coming down."
And so I did the lymphatic work, and the next day it was here and my eye, which I'm like, ooh, that could've been me kind of, like, spreading it. I was like... But then that, that was it. It, like, was, like, settled from there. And granted, I'm on an an- antiviral too. I can't say this is, like, all lymphatic drainage.
But it was just one of those things that I was like, I know technically this is contraindicated and, like, my body, my choice, I guess. But I was like, I was just feeling like, you know- It just felt intuitive ... every day... It felt intuitive. Yeah. Like, yes, my lymph's been doing its job, but now it's been overwhelmed, and how can I support it?
And I felt like I need to get it, uh, to be unclogged in that area and, like, support the body-wide system. And I didn't go aggressive, right? Like, I pr- pretty gentle, but I do feel like, you know, after that day, like, it started, like, feeling less congested again and, and, and I'm like... And it coincided with my rash starting to go away and the end of the antiviral.
But I was like, yeah, I feel like- And again, I think too what you're saying is like intuitively I felt that, and I'm sure there's way objectively I could have measured that too. I'm sure if I would've like maybe even checked my pulse on that side, it might have been diminished just from the general like congestion throughout that whole thoracic inlet.
But that is like a catch-22 is like, yeah, well, standard practice is we tell you you shouldn't do this on like active infections and cancers, but also like
Leah Levitan: But also it might
Anna Hartman: help When you start learning about it, you kind of wonder, like, could it be helpful? Yeah.
Leah Levitan: I think a lot of the contraindications, s- I say a lot, but like the longer that you do the work, whatever the work is, right?
The body work- Yeah ... um, the fewer contraica- contraindications there are, because you just figure out- Yeah ... different ways of like, okay, maybe we just don't take like a baseball bat to it, but-
Anna Hartman: Yeah ...
Leah Levitan: could this help?
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Maybe we're just gent- gentle.
Leah Levitan: We definitely have some like- And I think sometimes I might-
infection protocols at our clinic too.
Anna Hartman: Oh, right. Oh, that's good. Yeah, that are like more gentle and like-
Leah Levitan: Well, it's, it's more like if they-- like if, if you were a client and you were like- Mm-hmm ... "I have shingles here in my scalp and it's, you know, it's- Mm ... kind of moving in this direction. Should I co- should I still come in for my appointment?"
You know, we would wanna know if you were on antiviral or if you, let's say you got like a, I don't know, you cut yourself and it, it was like warm to the touch and infection was clear. Oh. It's like, yeah, we don't really wanna... We definitely wanna let the body sort of decide what to do with that, and so- Yeah
our general, uh, recommendation is like 72 hours. It's like you've been on the medica- Right ... you've been on antibiotics or antiviral and it, and you're feeling better, you know? And that's- Yeah ... just like our policy for working on people.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Leah Levitan: But I think you, you did it beautifully. Thank you. Like you gave, you gave the medicine time, you gave your body time- Yeah
and then you were like, "I'm gonna supplement. I'm gonna add this and see what helps." Yeah. And seems like it did.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. And I did in terms of like, I did it once and I felt like it helped, and then the next day I was like, "Mm, I could get greedy and do it again, but you know what? I think I've cleared enough space.
I'll just let my body do its thing again." And then-
Leah Levitan: Mm ...
Anna Hartman: so.
Leah Levitan: Smart.
Anna Hartman: Smart. Yeah. Smart. Yeah. I'm always like, with some of the contraindications and precautions and stuff, I feel like a lot of them come from us just not knowing and being, you know, erring on the side of caution, which is 100% I get. Um, and then that's when too, it's like, you know, the work I do, it's like so wonderful that I can actually like trust my hands to listen to the body because like there are times that I have my hands on somebody and the body's like clearly like, "Don't touch me."
And so I'm like honoring that. It, it does put you in a place that you feel comfortable sort of bending the rules a little bit with some of the precautions. Um, but obviously that's not for everyone. And then sometimes I think too, like yes, manual therapy is powerful, but movement is well, is as well. And then so I'm like, well, if you're not going to put contraindications around movement in that area, like- Let's
Leah Levitan: pump, let's pump, pump the lymph
Anna Hartman: Exactly. Like, I'm like, "Okay, well we can, we can get, we can help the lymph in other like movement exercise ways without it seeming like I'm doing manual therapy." And so then I'm also like, sometimes that gives me a little bit permission too of like, well, I'll do a little gentle manual therapy because how is this any different than movement?
Like, in terms of the, what it's stirring up sort of thing. So-
Leah Levitan: Feeling
Anna Hartman: better ... an interest, I mean, that could be it. That conversation with precautions and contraindications could like literally be about anything, but-
Leah Levitan: Yeah ...
Anna Hartman: yeah. It's tough. Well, um- Is there anything else that you were feeling like you wanted to chat about or, like, share, or should we just, like, try a little session?
Leah Levitan: Hmm. Maybe a little something. I'm like,
Anna Hartman: I know we could probably just chat forever.
Leah Levitan: Yeah. I'll share a little something before we head into our session- Yeah ... together.
Anna Hartman: Yeah, I would love it.
Leah Levitan: Um, so one thing that has been really interesting to me just in my own embodied experience in this meat suit of mine
Anna Hartman: Yeah
Leah Levitan: has been, like, the power of working on your own stuff. Mm-hmm. Like really, like putting your hands into your, into your belly and releasing your hip flexors and like, you know, like exploring your own tissues. It's just- Yeah ... it's really been powerful, and that was something that I just like, I, I almost... I don't know.
Maybe it was just me as like a people pleaser or whatever. I'm just like, "Let me just take care of everybody else. I'm fine. I'm good. I don't, I don't need anything." Yeah. And so, uh, this little, like, self-care session that we'll go into that hopefully will help you inform your touch. Uh, also I hope it's, uh, just an invitation to touch your body more often with, like on purpose, uh, because it- Mm-hmm
will make you a better practitioner, and it'll change the experience that you're having in your body and the relationship that you have with it. And that's all I wanna say- Absolutely ... about that.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. I love that. I mean, I'm the same way. I'm, like, working on myself, and not just working on myself, but yeah, exploring my own body through self-massage and- Movement
touch and-
Leah Levitan: Yeah,
Anna Hartman: movement- ...
Leah Levitan: movement
Anna Hartman: has been, ugh, so powerful, not just as my own medicine, but like, to make me a better practitioner for people. Yeah. And make me appreciate the wisdom of the body even more and, like, how amazing and easy it changes. Um, and how much it has to share with us in terms of, too, like...
W- my doctor, she's always like, whenever I say like, "Oh, what do you think about this or this supplement?" Or, "Do you think this is, could be what's going on in my body?" Or, and like, she's al- she always just laughs. She's like, "Yes. If you're bringing it up, yes." She's like, "You know," like she's like, "You are so in tune with your body."
She's like, "I trust anything that you say." 'Cause sometimes even in my last appointment, she's like, "Did, do you feel like I did anything? 'Cause I feel like sometimes I'm just, like, agreeing with your,your, like, synopsis on what's going on." And she's like, "I hope you know I'm only agreeing with you because I trust you and also you, like, are bringing-" like, like important information to light and like you're, you're seeing things the right way."
She's like, "I will speak up if it's wrong." She's like, "But like..." She's like, "Also like..." She's like, "You're..." She's like, "If anybody's ever gonna catch something wrong with their body, like immediately it's you." And I was like, "Oh, well, thanks. You're right. I am," which is why, you know, the shingles had like two spots and I was like, "Oh my God, the shingles."
So I mean, I agree with you. I can't stress enough how important self-touch, self-care, movement, like spending time in your own body is, and not just to take care of ourselves- We gotta walk the
Leah Levitan: path ... because that's who
Anna Hartman: we are. Yeah. Walking the path. But also because it provides us so much value as professionals and people and like advocates for ourselves, but advocates for our patients, too.
Leah Levitan: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: So-
Leah Levitan: That human experience.
Anna Hartman: Mm.
Leah Levitan: Ah, okay. Well, do you just want me to guide-- We're just gonna do a little bit of-
Anna Hartman: Yeah ...
Leah Levitan: like lymph drainage together or some- Yeah, take it away. I love it ...
Anna Hartman: we can do like a little fascia, fascia lymph, fascia lymph connection. However you wanna do it is, it's good for me.
Leah Levitan: Okay.
Ah, well, maybe we just take a moment to sort of like drop a pin- ... in our current experience and just like arrive. So maybe just like a couple deeper, fuller breaths in through the nose, out through parted lips.
And just noticing the wave-like property of your breath
So we're gonna do something called the five-phase framework. This is just my method of opening things in a way that makes sense, that feels like it flows. And so we're gonna start. Phase one is just placing the hands up just over the collarbones, above and below. You could do one side at a time if that feels good, or you could do both sides at the same time.
And what we're looking for is this circular pumping, almost like you're scooping fluid down towards these drains behind your collarbones, the subclavian veins. And we're really stretching the skin as well. That happens to me every class that I teach. I'm like I have like a microphone. I'm like, "We're doing neck stuff again?"
Anna Hartman: I'm like, "Where should I put this?" There we go. Down here.
Okay.
Leah Levitan: All right, we got it. We got it. And you might even generate some warmth in the tissue
Now let's just do a little myofascial release for the collarbones here. So find your sternal notch, and we're gonna press our finger, the flats of our fingers, and just scoop into the SCM head. So we're sort of taking the tip of the finger, scooping it behind the collarbone. And so you can displace the SCM a little bit.
It's very tight in here, and you might feel, um, the urge to cough. And it might be very difficult to get in here, and that's okay. So just kind of listening to your body here And so this phase one is, you know, the lowest point of pressure in the body behind the collarbones So just opening these channels to be more receptive to the fluid that's coming from above So we always work distal-- I mean, proximal to distal
Now you can kind of come out of that and just trace your fingers along the collarbones. The deeper fa- and you can repeat that process if it feels good, just kind of moving across, getting a little platysma, getting a little blood flow
Forgot what I was saying before this. I usually will-- or like, I'm in a trance. What, where am I? Step two?
Anna Hartman: Yeah. I'm like, what? Yeah. I get like that too when I'm doing this.
Leah Levitan: And then just, let's just like bring a little vibration into the chest. Our fluid loves vibration.
And now, so we have two major chains of lymph nodes that run along either side of the SCM. So we have like a, some superficial drainage that's kind of coming down laterally, and then we have deep chains, and a third of the lymph nodes in the body are located in the head and neck. So if we're gonna work superficially, we're gonna take our wrists together and create a seat.
So let's go ahead and just clear that, and then we can work a little bit more deeply. So now we're gonna wrap our hands around our neck and sort of give ourselves a hug. You can feel your pinky fingers just at the base of the skull. So now we're gonna push our palms away from each other. You'll feel the skin tightening on the front of your throat, but not like you're choking yourself out.
And then you're gonna give yourself a pump down towards the collarbones, and we'll repeat that process. So just gently separating and stretching the skin laterally and then down. And so that might look like a circle, but it could also be seen as a two-directional stretch, whatever feels easier for you.
And we're just staying on that superficial layer. So just kind of imagine that you're mobilizing the skin, mobilizing that superficial Tissue. The superficial fascia.
You may notice some saliva production. We're getting some lovely vagus nerve stimulation.
And now we're gonna start row, uh, alternating between the left and right hand. So now we're just gonna almost like squeegee. And I will often sort of describe it's like a leaf floating on the surface of the s- like the water. If you were to just take your fingers and push that leaf around without it submerging, like that squeegeeing has that, you know, that outer layer effect that like in your mind's eye, I'm not pressing down into the tissue, I'm just staying- Right
staying along the surface.
So now you could kind of come into the corner of the jaw here. Um, a lot of tension in here. If it feels like it needs a little, a little stimulation with just the tips of the fingers right on that ligament for the jaw, that's a nice one because fluid really gets stuck. Like the jaw is such a common bottleneck for people.
So when we're kind of in that, we did phase one, phase two is the neck, and so it's like anything that you're doing in phase two could just be of service to drainage here, and, and knowing that fluid is coming from the floor of the mouth and the teeth and the tongue, and they're being drained into lymph nodes at the corners of the jaw, and then they're coming down and draining this way.
So you could kind of play in the corners of the jaw, and then you could also just kind of come in front of the SCM and just do like a little gentle, like deeper drainage To get that deep cervical chain. So we've, we've drained the superficial, and now we're doing a little deeper drainage. And that's just very gentle.
Deep is gentle here in the neck, right? Deep ain't deep, the same deep everywhere. Mm-mm. So adjusting your depth. And then we can move on to phase three. So the jaw, the floor of the mouth is such a point of tension for people. We tend to bite our tongue a lot, huh? Uh, we're a little underexpressed or a lot of us are.
Mm-hmm. So just sort of taking the, the tip of the thumb and put- pressing it into the inside portion of the jaw. If you have a flat surface in front of you, you can use the weight of your head to just sort of melt into your pressure, and then your fingers will start to glide apart from one another as you strip that underbelly of the jaw and sort of squeegee that lymph through that pa- that drainage pathway, and then you can repeat this process Now sometimes the platysma will kind of create some, uh, some bottleneck.
So if you wanted to add like a finger or two on the outside of the jaw, so now you've got a nice little sandwich. And so you could do a little myofascial release for the platysma, and then you get into a little bit of masseter. But it's still lymph focused, right? It's fascia, but it's lymph. It's all of it.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Leah Levitan: And you might really notice some saliva production here. Oh boy, such a lymphatic rich nook and cranny of the body
Now phase four is gonna be the bottlenecks of the ears. So we have lymph nodes in front of and behind the pre and retroauricular. So you could do like three fingers in the front and just one behind, and now you could just rub up and down if that feels good. A lot of times I notice that my clients' ears are just like glued to their skull.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Leah Levitan: So just mobilizing the ears a little bit. You can even pull on your ears in all directions. Lots of low-hanging fruit nervous system stuff here. Sometimes I'll even put my fingers in the ear canal and I'll, and I'll like traction forward, I'll traction up, I'll traction down, I'll traction back. It all feels good and it all mobilizes the eustachian tube, so t- helping with like canal drainage.
Anna Hartman: Hmm.
Leah Levitan: And so you can also use that backwards and down circular motions. And now we did a little fascia, let's do a little lymph. So now we're just gonna press our ears backwards and then pump down. Backwards and down. Mobilizing as much skin as you can
Sometimes people will feel, uh, a change in pressure of their ears, a pop. Mm. You know? You're changing elevation. It's a good sign that you're doing it right. And now let's just traction the skin down and just hold it
And then maybe let's just let those hands melt and drain down the front of the neck
And then point number five, you know, we have those sinus cavities and we have the lymph node path here. So you s- you were talking about, uh, eye health, Anna. I love the eyes. They're so cool. I just love how much real estate the brain dedicates to vision. And, um, so this, uh, area around the eye, it actually drains straight down.
So globally, if you divide your head, if you divide your head and neck in half, it's like the, it's like the roof of a house or a mountain. It's like rain is gonna come down on either side, and then it's gonna go in the gutters. So I like that roof analogy because it kind of tell- tells you- Yeah ... the global drainage.
Um, but the center of the face, you-- again, that's superficial. So for deep drainage, it's more like this. And so this area of the body, the sinus, the mouth, the, um, everything else kind of has to just go through a different flow. So we have lymph nodes underneath the eyes, uh, or not underneath the eyes, but they drain to like the nasolabial lymph nodes.
And then we have more lymph nodes here and a couple here. And so it's like the path of the eyes comes straight down, and then they drain into that- Mm ... floor of the mouth. And so- Mm ... this area just gets so congested for so many, and that's why I'll work on the inside of the mouth. I'll do drainage inside for the nasolabials-
Anna Hartman: Mm
Leah Levitan: um, and alleviating that tension so that like their jaw moves, their tongue moves.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Leah Levitan: I teach them to pull their tongue. And so what you- Mm-hmm ... could do is just, you know, feel around this soft, squishy space and you'll find a little indentation, and you could either just use the tips of your fingers, again, using that flat surface, putting your elbows there, resting your head, uh, just using the weight to make it easier and more sustainable.
Or you could do a knuckle if that feels better. And so in this zone five, you could do some superficial drainage, but why not work a little bit deeper?
Especially if you have allergies or headaches or, you know, eye strain, this would like decongest a lot of stuff. And just focusing on breathing in through the nose, out through the nose
And now let's come to like the root of the nose, just like where, where that little hood vent attaches to the hole in your noggin. And you can just do a little bit of movement right on that seam to really open things up
Give it some movement. It's like how often are we like mobilizing our nose?
Anna Hartman: Right.
Leah Levitan: And then you could do some superficial drainage. I like to call this the J hook. So I'll put the flat of my finger here along the bridge of the nose, and then I'll twist and rotate out to the side like a little J. And then you do the other side, and then you rotate to the other side.
So little J hook. And then you could repeat from the bridge all the way down
And you'll probably get some nice clear sinuses here.
Anna Hartman: I would love that.
Leah Levitan: And so that's kind of like the phase- Mine's really
Anna Hartman: tender ...
Leah Levitan: yeah, like that's kind of like the phase five is just that like the really meaty portion of the- Center ... meaty portion of the... I love that. So just to summarize, 'cause I did a bunch of random stuff, uh, 'cause I just, I just wanted to add some glitter on there.
So the five phase framework can be as simple as just rubbing your collarbones for like 10, 15 seconds, just pumping for 10, 15 seconds, just sliding and gliding under the jaw for 10, 15 seconds, ears, cheeks, and that deep lymph path.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Leah Levitan: And so that's the five phase framework. That's how I approach it, and the limbs are almo- almost identical.
It just helps you- Mm ... kind of get that like framework for like- Yeah ... what am I supposed to do next? And whatever you do in that territory, it can be lymph, it can be fascia, it can be nervous system, like whatever, whatever your intention is- Yeah ... align that tension with your touch. So.
Anna Hartman: I love that. I like the- How'd it
Leah Levitan: feel?
Anna Hartman: It felt really good. I actually really like the going kind of, sort of in like back and forth between like the more fascia and then the superficial. Like it feels really, feels really- Dynamic? ... nice and it makes sense, and dynamic, yeah. It's not as like boring as lymph drainage, I guess.
Leah Levitan: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Like normally, like if, if, if I were to say something, it's like, oh, like you feel like you're...
It's like you can feel the progress a little bit more, and I almost feel like you can feel the superficial like movement better.
Leah Levitan: Oh, yeah.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Leah Levitan: Oh, yeah.
Anna Hartman: So, so I see why you like this patterning.
Leah Levitan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it also, it creates more- Yeah ... of like a flow to your work so that it's not just like- Mm-hmm
such a clinical touch, right? Like I-
Anna Hartman: Yeah ...
Leah Levitan: I started my career in like a sports medicine chiropractor's office and I worked with like-
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm ...
Leah Levitan: NFL, NFL people and, uh- Yeah ... Olympians and all kinds of like really great, amazing athletes. Yeah. And it was really fun, but it was also like the, you know, he was kind of mentoring me and it was a lot of, uh, trigger point, Graston, pin and stretch, mobile, whatever- Yeah
all the things. Yeah. But it was very clinical, and so it's nice- Yeah ... to be able to have a little bit of flow so that their nervous system- Yes ... can really just like chew on it.
Anna Hartman: Right. It is interesting. It's-- I, I like that you pointed that out, the clinical-ness to, like, the flow, 'cause I'm like, yeah, I guess back in the day I did learn things very clinical.
And again, it goes back to, like, trusting your hands and trusting what you're feeling in your own body. That's when you feel comfortable to, like, explore someone else's and, like, just follow that, and it's-- then it becomes so much more fun.
Leah Levitan: So fun.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Well, that was wonderful. I appreciate it. Glad you enjoyed
Leah Levitan: it.
Thanks for
Anna Hartman: practicing with me today. Yeah. I'm sure everybody will. Yeah. Um, well, tell, uh, tell everybody a little bit about, yeah, about the Lymph Love Club, how they can join if they'd like to, um, or any other educational or things that you have to sign up for. Maybe speak to, um, Jill and your product, um, how they can get that.
And I'll-- obviously I'll have Jill link it all in the show notes, but how can they find you?
Leah Levitan: Hmm. Thank you. Well, you can find me at lymphloveclub.com. We do have some courses, like I have a head and neck drainage course. It's definitely from a client perspective, so it's pretty simple. Mm-hmm. I wouldn't say that that's like the thing that a, a clinician needs to get, even though-
Anna Hartman: Right
Leah Levitan: I mean, it's also affordable- I'm sure it would still be helpful. Yeah. ... so if you did want it and gift it to somebody. Um, but yeah, I've got one of those, a pelvic pain class, like pelvic, uh, pelvic lymph stuff. And that one, uh, I'll be redoing soon. And also just in the community there's, you know, more up-to-date resources.
Like I've learned so much since the, that course came out, so- Oh, I'm sure ... the Lymph Love Club is like evergreen. Here's everything that, you know, here's everything that I know today as I'm hitting record- Yeah ... or doing a live class or something.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Leah Levitan: But, so
Anna Hartman: yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say, and you do live classes in the Lymph Love Club?
Leah Levitan: Yeah. Yeah. We meet on Wednesdays to do like a morning flow, which is kinda like a self-care, full body lymph thing, and there's different kinds. Uh, but mostly they're just very relaxing. Some, some are more invigorating, but it's all just like- Yeah ... touch, movement, self-care, what it means to be in a body, all the things.
I love it. And then on Saturdays we have, uh, like more specialized classes. So we'll do- Cool ... uh, lymphatic drainage, kinda like we did for the h- kinda like just what we did. We'll do- Mm-hmm ... you know, a head and neck class once a month. We'll do an abdominal class once a month, where we're like mobilizing our organs and draining lymph in that way.
Uh, draining lymph in the pelvis. Lots of little nuggets. And we, we use therapy balls too.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Leah Levitan: So a little bit of everything. And then- I love that ... yeah, Jill and I, Jill and I just did this really incredible class back in April. I flew to LA to film in her studio and, um, it's called the Fascia Lymph Connection.
Mm-hmm. And so Jill and her incredible wisdom that, and career that arcs like 30 years, she's-- was, it was just amazing to teach a class with her. Yeah. And so-
Anna Hartman: I bet ...
Leah Levitan: she brought all the fascial wisdom with the therapy balls. I brought all the lymphatics, and then And then that two and a half hour workshop is kind of moving through all of the different, um, I mean, I say all of the different, but just a lot of the different areas in the body where fluid tends to get stuck.
Yeah. It's really good to know where those areas are and how to, uh, manipulate them and support them and yeah. Hopefully in 2027- Yeah. I love it ... I'll, I'll be offering some in-person trainings here in Austin, just very advanced- Oh, that would be awesome ... very advanced, like fascial fo- like fascia nervous system focused approach.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Yeah. For other practitioners, like teaching other practitioners.
Leah Levitan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Oh, I love
Leah Levitan: that. Excited about that one.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. That's really exciting. Well, sweet. I mean, you sold me. I'm like, "I think I'm gonna sign up for the Lymph Love Club." This was awesome.
Leah Levitan: Awesome.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. And I need this.
Leah Levitan: Well- Um, absolutely
it's definitely, there's a, a one-week free trial too. So we have like a video- Oh, cool ... player in there that makes it easy- Play right ... to navigate. It's always hard when you join a virtual community. You're like, "How do I use this platform?" Yeah. It's like another- What
Anna Hartman: does that even mean? Another platform.
Leah Levitan: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Well, yeah, where do you ho- what, what kind of platform are you hosted on?
Leah Levitan: Uh, Kajabi.
Anna Hartman: Kajabi. Cool.
Leah Levitan: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. So, uh, my people will be familiar with it at least, so that's good.
Leah Levitan: Okay. Are you Kajabi as well? Cool.
Anna Hartman: I'm Kajabi too, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Leah Levitan: Okay.
Anna Hartman: Well, for the courses, um, and I have a community on Facebook, but yeah, the courses are all in Kajabi.
Leah Levitan: Cool.
Anna Hartman: So, cool. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it and, um, look forward to doing more with you.
Leah Levitan: Yeah. Thanks
Anna Hartman: so much for having me. Uh, so yeah. Yeah, no problem.