Applying The LTAP™ From 80-Year-Olds to Athletes: LTAP™ Alumni Interview
In this episode of the Unreal Results podcast, I sit down with physical therapist and LTAP™ alum, Greg Moe, to explore how he’s using the LTAP™ framework with a completely different population than my own: older adults.
Greg shares his journey from relying on trial-and-error treatments to finding a clear, principle-based system that gives him confidence and helps him stand out in both clinical practice and business. You’ll hear why the LTAP™ has been a game changer for him, not just in restoring movement and relieving pain, but in helping clients regain hope.
We also talk about how Greg adapts LTAP™ principles for an older population where traditional inhibition tests or mobility measures aren’t always reliable, and why stepping back to see the body through a whole-systems lens changes everything. Greg shares some incredible case stories, from stubborn knee pain that resolved after addressing the rib cage, to dramatic posture changes in patients who had “structural” limitations that weren’t so fixed after all.
Whether you’re working with older adults, active clients, or anyone in between, this conversation is packed with insight on how to apply LTAP™, restore confidence in your practice, and help patients believe in what’s possible again.
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
Sign up for the Fall 2025 online LTAP™ LEVEL 1 course HERE!
Connect with Greg on Instagram
Learn the LTAP™ In-Person in one of my upcoming courses
Considering the viscera as a source of musculoskeletal pain and dysfunction is a great way to ensure a more true whole body approach to care, however it can be a bit overwhelming on where to start, which is exactly why I created the Visceral Referral Cheat Sheet. This FREE download will help you to learn the most common visceral referral patterns affecting the musculoskeletal system. Download it at www.unrealresultspod.com
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Anna Hartman: Hey there and welcome. I'm Anna Hartman and this is Unreal Results, a podcast where I help you get better outcomes and gain the confidence that you can help anyone, even the most complex cases. Join me as I teach about the influence of the visceral organs in the nervous system on movement, pain and injuries, all while shifting the paradigm of what whole body assessment and treatment really looks like.
I'm glad you're here. Let's dive in.
Hello. Hello. Welcome back to another episode of the Unreal Results Podcast. I got another special guest, special episode for you all. I have one of my LTAP certified LTAP providers, um, Greg Moe. Uh, he is joining us to talk about, um, his experience using the LTAP, his, um. Unique, well, I don't know if it's unique, but his, uh, the population of people that he works with very different than mine.
And so it's been really fun to hear about how he utilizes what he's learned with the LTAP and how he adapts things to fit his patient care. And, uh, I'm just really excited to have him on the, uh, podcast. And so, Greg, I'll give it to you. You can add to that little intro and tell the people all about you.
Greg Moe: Yeah, I'm excited to be here too, so thanks for having me on, Anna. Um, so yeah, I'm a physical therapist, licensed physical therapist. I live in St. George, Utah. And yeah, the population that I work with, at least for my W2 job is the advanced age population. I'd say on average we're in the eighties. Um, so it's, it's pretty advanced age.
Um, but it makes it really fun. Um, yeah. Some challenging pieces. A lot of people working on just balance and general strength, but you know, everyone has postural issues and probably some sort of pain as well. So, um, yeah, getting to use the LTAP has been, been really cool. I was in the Denver course.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Greg Moe: Gosh, that was in April.
Anna Hartman: Yeah, last April,
Greg Moe: right. So, yeah. So
Anna Hartman: this year, April? Yeah. Yeah, it was April this year. So
Greg Moe: it's still relatively new. Yeah. But it is something I use every day, so I get plenty of practice. And the nice thing about my setting, like what's, what's very cool is my, it's an outpatient practice, but it's located inside of the community that everyone lives in.
So I see these people every day, whether or not I'm working with them at that time or not. And um, yeah, so it gets just. Just get to see how it impacts their life in a real way each day, which is pretty cool. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, yeah, outside of that, I still have, we were originally from California, so I still have some clients in Southern California that I see when we go into town in person and some that I still see online, you know, via Zoom or um, or whatnot.
And, um, yeah. But I mean, I don't know if you want me to go into it, but, but like my journey with the LTAP, I actually found
Anna Hartman: I would love it. Go ahead, take the podcast away.
Greg Moe: I found you probably, gosh, I want to say it was two or three years before I actually signed up for the course. Um, and I did your results cheat code.
Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Is now the missing link?
Greg Moe: Yeah. I was like, it's probably renamed now. Yeah. If I remember correctly. Well, it's both,
Anna Hartman: I mean, yes. Uh, people get confused. It is confusing. The missing link is just one of the tests. The results cheat code used to be both of the SI joint tests. So depending on when you took it, you might've been in the transition.
But yes, I
Greg Moe: think I got both of them. Yes, I did get both of them. So there you go. Yeah. And uh, at that time I was just in a, you know. Like a normal outpatient PT clinic in Southern California. And I think, I don't know, even before taking that, I was really intrigued. Um, I've always been someone who I guess just had it in my mind for whatever reason that the people that I was seeing should leave me feeling better than when they came in.
Yes. Um, not worse. And so. I think as I've grown in my career, like that's always been my goal is like, how do I just get people feeling better in that session? Right? Yeah. And then maybe it would stay, maybe it wouldn't, but like that was, the troubleshooting was okay if I own, if I, if it worked but only lasted a couple hours, well how can I make it work?
And last for longer and then longer and then longer. Um, but it was a lot of trial and error. Like I had different tools. I had taken different courses on like ways to treat, um. And yeah.
Anna Hartman: Were those courses mostly, um, exercise based or manual therapy or a little bit of both?
Greg Moe: A little bit of both. Both. I think I was, I've always been drawn towards manual therapy.
Mm-hmm. Um, just from my own personal experiences, I feel like I've always felt like it's powerful in my own body. And so that's like what I've always had. Like, I don't know. I've always had, like you say, like. Just putting your hands on someone is powerful, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so I think I always, always had that bias.
Mm-hmm. For whatever reason. And, um, so yeah, they were mostly manual. Um, but I was still a guessing game. Like, I'd try this and okay, if that didn't help, then I just try the next thing. And if that didn't help, I'd just try the next thing. And, um, I think I was decent. Okay. With some of the results because
Anna Hartman: mm-hmm.
Greg Moe: I just keep trying things until something worked right. Instead of just like banging my head against the wall doing the same thing. Mm-hmm. Assuming that at some point it might work. Yes. I that I, that wasn't for me. So, um, but anyway, I, I probably found your, I actually don't remember, it was either social media or podcast, probably social media first and just the idea that.
Potentially I could know like what I should do or where I should start. Yeah. Was very intriguing to me. Mm-hmm. Right, because I,
Anna Hartman: yeah,
Greg Moe: I saw the, I saw the body or the, the, the person as a whole in my mind, but didn't really have the skill set or knowledge. To assess that way.
Anna Hartman: Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. No, it makes sense.
Greg Moe: Or I thought I was, but mm-hmm. I wasn't really, you know? Mm-hmm. I was doing the best that I could with what I had.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: Um, and
Anna Hartman: that's, I was gonna, not to interrupt you, but that's, um, you've touched on a couple things that I think are. Really interesting. And I know like just from knowing other clinicians that have gone through the practice and like, you know, I, I'm endlessly trying to, from a business standpoint, get the messaging right on like who the course is for and like what problems it solves.
And like one of the things is, is even though it's like I'm all about like. Getting people better results and like, like rising against the mediocrity of the industry. I think that the people that tend to resonate with the message and resonate with the course are people like you who already were getting good results.
And, but like you said, like had this little whisper in your ear of like, I think it's possible to get even better results and like, you know what I mean? Like you knew that there was something more and then. The other piece that I think is interesting is that you already had this like trial and error mentality of like not being stuck in a, stuck in a way of being or stuck in a bias, a, a, a, a paradigm that like for just the sake of like, well, this is how I learned it and so I'm gonna stay like this.
And I think, um. You know, so I think when you were presented with me being like, Hey, this assessment is a way for you to figure out where to start and to consider the viscera in the nervous system. You were like, huh, well that's one of the things I've not tried before. Like, because I didn't have the tool to, so it's like, yeah, yeah.
It just made sense for you. So. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. 'cause it's like, yeah, it, you're right. Like most of the people who come are great clinicians and just wanna keep doing better for themselves and for their patients and like are like tr I don't wanna say truth seekers 'cause it's, you know, but like Yeah.
You're, you're curious, curious. Catch. Just curious. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Curious is the right word. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.
Greg Moe: And, and I feel like maybe. The experiences that I've had, like other people treating me that are unique or different, like that definitely impacted me as well. So I think coming from that background of, yeah, I've seen some different things both with me and my wife.
It's like, oh yeah, we definitely didn't learn any of this. You know?
Anna Hartman: Yeah,
Greg Moe: man, nothing else has worked and like, and this worked. So, um, yeah, always willing to. Do something weird. Yeah. Or seemingly weird.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's not really
Greg Moe: weird. Right. It, it's not weird,
Anna Hartman: but it to someone who
Greg Moe: doesn't know, it's weird.
Anna Hartman: Correct. And it's not the standard. It's not the standard. Mm-hmm. It's not the standard. Well, I love that. And so, I mean.
So I'm like, I don't know where to go from here other than like, okay, so we know that that's what you were seeking out. You know this, this drive to just. Get even better results and, and like figure out what you were missing and you under, you know, you, you were looking and appreciating the whole organism and all the systems, but didn't have an assessment tool for it.
So you joined the results cheat code and then you did the online. Well, I guess it started, it was all at the same time. It was in person.
Greg Moe: I just did it all at the same time. Yeah, yeah. So, because
Anna Hartman: the Denver course I think was started the weekend before the online course started.
Greg Moe: Yeah. Yeah. So I did the results cheat code.
I played around with that, like in the clinic. Um, but it, I think just timing wise and the situation I was in, it like wasn't quite right.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Greg Moe: I, like, I had recently taken on the position as the clinic director there. Mm.
Anna Hartman: And
Greg Moe: so I just didn't have that much time to, to like put into my, yeah. My own skills.
Yeah. There was a lot of other stuff going on that I was learning. You wanna be
Anna Hartman: a manager?
Greg Moe: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Totally different. And so
Greg Moe: totally different. And, and it just hit, hit me in a, in a place where like, this is cool. And I was playing around with it a little bit and then it kind of got lost.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Greg Moe: Um, and then at some point, I dunno, a year, let's say a year later, I left the clinic and started doing my own thing in again in California.
And I always had it, but almost was using it. Just like one of my other tools. Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Like
Greg Moe: I'd go do my normal assessment first and I'd do what I thought was best first. And then if that wasn't working, I re I remembered, oh, I have this other thing that I can check to see if there is a visceral or central nervous thing going on.
I would check that, but, and then, you know, try something with that. And yeah. And I feel like sometimes it would work, but it was just kind of almost like another tool instead of Right. Instead of like the lens that I was looking through. Mm-hmm. Um, and then what happened? We were out. I mean, we were out here in St.
George and I think I'm always thinking like, you know, not only just how can I get better results, but also with having the desire of like growing a business.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Greg Moe: How do I separate myself? Like yeah. Everyone often talks about imposter syndrome. Right? Right. Especially when you're starting a business.
Yeah, absolutely. Like you wanna market yourself and you wanna believe in yourself.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Greg Moe: And at the same time, it's hard sometimes it's hard to believe that you really can get better results than everyone. Mm-hmm. Than, than other people or things that they've tried before.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. And
Greg Moe: so I think that was part of my desire.
Mm-hmm. Building the confidence in myself to, mm-hmm. Like you say, like to. Be able to, you know, feel very confident that you can get results in one to three treatments. Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. That
Greg Moe: was a selling point for me. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I was like, yes, I want that. Like I want that confidence. Yes. Because I want to be able to tell someone, oh, you tried that.
Well, like, I don't know if I can like. Make it all the way better, but I can. Yeah, but I can move the needle. I can, I can move the needle, right. I can't, yeah. So
Anna Hartman: many people come to you and be like, I've seen this person and this person, and I've done rehab for like year, or, this problem's been happening for years and nobody's been able to fix it, like.
I think that's like, I feel like that's every, at least for me, every person's story that comes to see me. And so I'm like, I, it's, I'm not alone in that. And so, yeah, I get it. And, and, and you're right. I, I've had other friends that are like, why? I was like, why don't you just do your own thing? 'cause they've been like disenfranchised by like the corporate model.
And they're like, well, just, I don't feel confident being able to guarantee results. And I'm like, why You already do, but also like, yes, this is a tool to help that because you're not wrong. Like when it's scary starting your own business and as someone who cares about. People, which is why we all get into this field.
Um, you're very sensitive to the increased cost of cash pay care. And so you, you don't wanna just take people's money unless you know you can get them what they want. And so that it, I think. You know, I don't even think it's imposter syndrome. I think it's that. I think it's like you care so much about the human and you realize like how hard people work for their money and how high healthcare costs are, and how high cash pay costs are.
And so it's like you're like, can I really be like, here, come see me for $150 or more. Yeah, like you said, you want somebody to leave feeling better because it feels really bad to take $150 from somebody or more Yeah. When they leave coming in the same or worse than when they came in, so like Yeah, I think it does feel awful.
That's, that's what it really boils down to is, is that more than like feeling like an imposter, like, 'cause
Greg Moe: that's true. Yeah.
Anna Hartman: It's like, no, because you care so much about the human being in front of you, that it's not just a money exchange, it's, it's like a, uh, it's a, it's a huge honor and like you realize how much, like what the money is, so.
Greg Moe: Absolutely. Yeah. It is. Yeah. So sorry to interrupt
Anna Hartman: you, but Yes. Oh, no, that was that.
Greg Moe: I think that that's, you're, you're right on point there. 'cause even, I don't know, I'm sure a lot of other people experience this too, but just pricing your services is hard. So like you just feel bad in a way, right? You feel like
Anna Hartman: 100% because we just want people to feel better and we feel bad that health like get that it costs money.
We feel bad that the mediocrity of the industry is where we're at and that it, you have to pay such higher rates to get good care. And it feels shitty because we know that it's an industry wide problem and we just wanna help everybody. But at the same time, to. Put roofs over our heads and feeds our families.
Like, you know, we have, we have to in a sense, but which is also like. It's funny that you, you were talking about this because this came up in the class that we were teaching. I was teaching this weekend in San Diego, like a bunch of us, you know, they, a bunch of the participants came to the same place that I had lunch, so we all talked over lunch and that they were asking me about my business model and I was like, do not ask me about how I charge my patients because there is a cost for my professional athletes who are millionaires and then there's everybody else that I haven't really.
Quite figured out how much to charge them because at the end of the day, I'm a softie and I just want you to feel better. And so like I've got these seven Navy seals who I'm like, oh, don't worry. Like you're good. I'm just gonna help you out because I can and because I don't think you should pay that much money out of pocket for healthcare.
I was like, yes, please don't model my business model. This is why I have another side of my business that also generates income for myself. So, uh, yeah. Um, all right. Well, I love, I love knowing that, that that is part of the reason you took the course like that.
Greg Moe: My light's turned off.
Anna Hartman: Oh,
Greg Moe: sorry. I don't know if you It's can see me.
I can still see you.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: Alright, that's good. Yeah. Um, but yeah, and then I'd say taking the actual course, I think I signed up for both in person and online at the same time. Mm-hmm. And the certification, like, yeah. Even though my only experience was the, um, yeah. And the results code, the results sheet code and the podcast, I was just like, you know what?
It's time.
Anna Hartman: Do it. Yeah. I love it. Just all in, I'm just,
Greg Moe: I'm just in. Right. I love it. And I think the other thing, speaking to like that confidence issue, I also think I had heard of, um, like the general listening and
Anna Hartman: mm-hmm.
Greg Moe: And, you know, craniosacral therapy and different things where like people. You know, talk about putting hands on someone and just like the body tells you, right?
Yeah. That was too far of a leap for me.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: And I imagine there's lots of people that feel that way. Mm-hmm. I and I, I mean, I believe there are people out there that really have like a, I. Gift with touch and just naturally they have it. Right. And, and they can nurture that. But I don't think I have, I don't think I have that.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Um,
Greg Moe: and I just practiced, 'cause I remember in PT school, like our first anatomy class, they're like, okay, like just palpate this, like bony prominence. And I'm like, I have no idea if I have it. Like, I cannot not feel anything. I can't feel the bone. Right. How, how am I supposed to know if something's tight or not?
You know? Yeah. So I just remember that. And, uh, so thinking, going from that, like, I can't even tell if I'm on the right bone
Anna Hartman: Yes. To
Greg Moe: thinking like, oh, I could put my hand on someone's head and be like,
Anna Hartman: yeah,
Greg Moe: it's your liver, or, right. You know, that's, that was such a big leap. That is a big leap. You're not
Anna Hartman: wrong.
Um,
Greg Moe: so that was the other thing was like, oh, that's su that's super cool to like. Um, to have the body to be able to listen to the body and have it tell you where to go, but not have to Yeah. Jump right into
Anna Hartman: the feeling, the touch, like the feeling, the tactile ability of it. Yeah.
Greg Moe: Yeah. So not that I, I, I still do wanna learn that.
I think that would be cool, but Yeah. Um, but that was, you're right, that was the other thing. Takes,
Anna Hartman: it's a big leap and it's a, it takes, I mean. Not that I am like fast by any means, but it took me like a good five or six years before I felt comfortable with it. And, um, it was, it, it wasn't just five or six years of practicing.
It was also five or six years of practicing along with practicing a lot of like personal development, like removing ego, learning how to just like feel in my whole body, not just my hands and like. Mm, really like healing myself from a grief standpoint and from a, like who I am as a clinician standpoint.
So I'm like, yeah, it doesn't sup, sup. Now does everyone go through that journey? Maybe not. But for me, that's the journey it took in order to be able to trust what I feel. And so I'm like, yeah, I see how it's a huge barrier to like. How, like if, if that's the only way that you can assess the body, like how the body is talking to you, it's, it's like, you know, not so successful.
Greg Moe: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that was my other thing, but I think when it came down to it, it ended up. I did the in person first.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm. And then
Greg Moe: the online after, that's just the timing of it. Mm-hmm. How it worked when I signed up. And Denver was the one that, um, that worked best for me location wise. So, um, but I liked that order.
Mm-hmm. I'm a, I'm like a pretty tactile learner. Mm-hmm. Kinesthetic learner. So when like I do something with my body, like I'll probably remember it.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Right.
Greg Moe: So it helped to just go through it in the weekend course and like. Get my hands on, do the thing. Um, and yeah. And so I thought that was, for me personally, I think that was the best way to do it, is like, get it all.
And now it's in my body. I get it. Yeah. You know, and now I can go back and like, think about
Anna Hartman: mm-hmm
Greg Moe: the details or what does this mean, or what would I do in this situation? Um, yeah. So,
Anna Hartman: yeah,
Greg Moe: I thought that was really, yeah. Really helpful for me. And yeah, like obviously the in-person, you're, you're learning a lot because you're actually practicing on other people and getting feedback.
Um, and like all the, all the people there we're all in the same boat. Mm-hmm. So I think everyone's like in, in a, I don't know, it was just a really, it's a good group of clinicians. So yeah, it really was, um, that was helpful. And then. I think to have the, the online after it was good because I was practicing what I had learned
Anna Hartman: mm-hmm.
Greg Moe: As I was like going through the content or you know, so if I had questions I. I was already practicing it, practicing what I, what I had already felt in my, in my body mm-hmm. Over the weekend. Mm-hmm. So that, that was really helpful. Yeah. And then, and then it's, you know, and then after, what is it, seven weeks and then it's just a continual learning process.
Yeah. Right. Like, uh, like today I was. I was looking up the different nerves around the, the knee, all like the ular nerves and like I was like,
Anna Hartman: huh,
Greg Moe: I forgot. I forgot about these. Like,
Anna Hartman: yeah, I forget all the time. That's why it's so great to be able to Google it.
Greg Moe: Yeah. And then. I don't know. This was just interesting.
Probably has not, not a lot to do, but when I was like dealing with the knee pain and like, oh, cool, all these funicular nerves, and I'm like looking it up online. It also said like, this is a common spot for a nerve block.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. I was like, oh,
Greg Moe: mm-hmm. Super cool. Like I didn't know that. And now I'm thinking of like other patients that like mm-hmm.
Have really bad knee pain that. There's like a lot of structural stuff mm-hmm. That like, you know, I do the best that I can, but like I'm not changing that and
Anna Hartman: Right.
Greg Moe: You know, we really haven't had a lot of change. I never thought of the nerve block. Yeah. So I'm gonna go suggest that to their doctor now, like Absolutely.
Yeah. So, well,
Anna Hartman: and it's funny that you say that because a lot of people ask, you know, everybody's always asking me like my favorite anatomy resources and for the neurovascular entrapment areas, my favorite, one of my favorite online resources is a company called Nysora N-Y-S-O-R-A. And it is all images for pain docs for nerve blocks and like.
Uh, treating pain and I'm like, yeah, these are perfect because wherever they're gonna do that injection, I'm gonna try to do treatment in that spot too. And you're right, it does open up the door for, you know, where to refer them to. And this is the great part of the assessment is like, you know, the pain's coming from there.
'cause you know how the body is directing you there,
Greg Moe: like Yeah. Inhibition,
Anna Hartman: tests. Like very clear.
Greg Moe: It was super clear. Yeah.
Anna Hartman: That's cool. It was cool. Yeah. I love that. So well, cool. Um, I mean, speaking of that, um, is there any other, like results or cases that you wanna share that have been like, stand out and really cool?
I know you've shared some cool cases with us when we did our, when you did your, um, certification. But even since then, as anything
Greg Moe: come up, there's one, um, that comes to mind. It's actually, uh, just like a general population person. Mm-hmm. Not from at work, but just a Yeah. A private client.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: Um, they've been having like really intense, like sharp knee pain for over two years, whenever they would de descend.
Like it started when they were Okay. Coming down from or doing Kilimanjaro.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm. And
Greg Moe: then, um, and just been bad ever since. And like, they've tried, you know, doing this exercise program, pt, massage, yoga, all these things just to manage it, but literally every time. And they love. Being outside. They love hiking.
Mm-hmm. They love, but every time they do like, it's a downhill, uh, just sharp pain. And as funny as, um, is actually the, um, spouse that came to me and was like, mm-hmm. You gotta help. You gotta help them.
Anna Hartman: They're like, please, I'm done hearing about it. They're complaining too much.
Greg Moe: Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and so like, oh, I'll try, I'll, I'll try.
So I go over and, um. I told him like, don't tell me. Like, let me, yes. Let me try to love that. Li listen first, right? Yes. Um, so I'm not biased or anything and so I, you know, go through the LTAP and it's directed me to the left, left lung. Uh, and it's kind of like, you know, maybe it's just generally left lung, let's say.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: And so, okay, like this is where we're gonna treat, we do some. Orthopedic test to like kind of reproduce the knee pain and he is like having a hard time reproducing it, but of course, of course. Right. Of
Anna Hartman: course. All right, well,
Greg Moe: okay, let's test some things and okay, we'll see test, you know, a couple things that I think could change hip hip mobility and whatnot.
And, all right, let, let's try and get, start getting the backstory. I'm like, this is where we're gonna do treatment. And he is like. You know what, like a few years ago, I had a mountain bike accident, broke my clavicle on that side.
Anna Hartman: Ah, yes. Like,
Greg Moe: oh, okay. So he was like,
Anna Hartman: that's
Greg Moe: really interesting that you chose that spot.
And so we do it. And I give him some of the exercises, some of like that prone breathing just to like, because he's also got just like me, if you remember from the Incourse? Yeah. Yeah. I got the, the flat back and the way back. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. So he's got the same thing. I'm like, let's try to restore some of your curvature, like, that'll be your homework.
And um, you know, they have, they actually had some cups too, for themselves. Mm-hmm. So like you could just kind of cup the area if. If you want to. Right. And like, and we'll just check in, like go test it. Right. We're done. Mm-hmm. Again, he's having a hard time reproducing the pain.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: Like his hip mobility definitely improved, right?
Like mm-hmm. Like, we made a change. Yeah. But we can't re reproduce your pain, so I don't really know.
Anna Hartman: Right.
Greg Moe: Like, but you gotta go test it. So, um, you know, let him do his thing, like, text me when, when you test it. Yeah. A week passes. I haven't heard, really heard anything. Like, I don't know. And so, and then finally he texts and says like, yeah, I, I kind of went for a hike to run and like went down some hills.
I don't really feel anything. I was like, that sounds good, right?
Anna Hartman: You've had knee pain for two years, I think that sounds great.
Greg Moe: He's like, but
Anna Hartman: I haven't tried the trail. That
Greg Moe: always gives me knee pain. I'm like, okay, we'll go try that trail. And so, but then like another couple weeks goes by and, uh, I don't really hear anything.
I'm like, I don't know, maybe I came back or, and then I get a, like a really cool text that he is like. I just want to tell you, like I went and did that trail and like I don't have any knee pain, like, um, no sharp stabbing pain. I could do it, and he is like, I finally have hope. I, you know, he had given up hope that he could do some, some of the other big peaks in the world, other than Kilimanjaro.
He was like, mm-hmm. I kind of just figured I wouldn't be able to do it anymore. Yeah. He was like, but now, but now I feel like I can, you know? That's amazing. Um, so that was super cool, right? Like, oh, I love that. That's really neat.
Anna Hartman: That's, um, I love that. I love that story too because the hope thing, I'm like, we're, this is what it really is, is like getting, being able to make changes as quick is like.
Yes, we're like hope dealers, and you start to realize how many people have like lost hope, like feel like lost causes or have been told by doctors or other practitioners that, Hmm, sometimes you just can't fix it. Like sometimes you just can't help everyone. And I'm like, it's, it's crazy to me, you know, because I'm like, I've got these 23 to 29 year olds right now.
And to hear how many of them have been told that I'm like. There's plenty of hope for you, I promise. But it is just like your guy found. It's like they're just waiting. Like even when you take their pain away, they're waiting for like the pin to drop. Mm-hmm. And they're just like, continue to assert. Like I can't get too excited.
Because there's no way that you treated my rib cage and made my knee feel better. And so they're just still waiting. And one of my guys the other day. He has, you know, he is had like severe shin splints and he's honestly, he's felt better to the point where I'm like, you can stop saying you have shin splints now it's been about four weeks.
And the other day he was complaining of knee pain and he's like, yeah my shins are like low priority now 'cause then my knee hurts. And I was like, could we just like agree that maybe like we're done with the shin splints. And he's like, do you think? And I'm like, do you not think you've had four weeks of it feeling good?
And he is like, oh, I don't know. He's like, still so hesitant. And it's just like, yeah, you, they, it's like a held on identity of like, well, I can't hike anymore because I have knee pain every time I descend. And I'm like, well, not anymore. So do you still wanna hike? Yeah.
Greg Moe: Yeah. So that, I mean, and it's fun to like, uh.
Get out of the, I don't know, out of my nine to five, you know? Yeah. And like have, see both sides of it because
Anna Hartman: Absolutely.
Greg Moe: I see those kinds of like, I don't know, they're more, they're often faster results mm-hmm. With, you know, a 40 something year old
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: Than an 80 something year old, right? Mm-hmm. But I mean, I have had dramatic results in the older population too.
And, um. Yeah, I know, like, like you said in the beginning, we have like the most different populations possible, probably, right?
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Yes.
Greg Moe: And, and the, the challenge with the older population is there are a lot of structural things. There's a lot of degeneration, arthritis, fusion, like things that, um, could, that would definitely make you think that.
Some of the tests would maybe not be the most reliable. Mm-hmm. Even the inhibition tests that we use of like strength mm-hmm. Like that is not reliable for me. It's. Not reliable in almost anyone in my mm-hmm. With this older population. 'cause they just get tired too fast. Yeah. Or like, it's just they can't do that motion.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: And so it, it doesn't really have the capacity to change.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: Um, and, you know, joint mobility, like
Anna Hartman: yeah, that's
Greg Moe: probably not gonna change in a lot of them and mm-hmm. But still, still get like, some cool dramatic results. Even like in. Posture just doing again, like some cupping in the right area. The one time it directed me to the liver, I was like, all right, let's, let's do it.
And see, and they, I mean we measured how far their head was off the wall at the start and it was like, you know, I, something like five inches off the wall couldn't even get out. Right. And then we did just that little bit of cuffing, retest it and they're like two fingers from the wall, right? Yeah. And crazy.
But the way that I get there a lot of times is, well, we talked about this before we hopped on, but like, it's the principles, right? Mm-hmm. And like, yeah. Not just, I guess, and that's a, um, a really positive thing for your course. Yeah. Anna is. We're not just learning tests. Right. We're not just like, this is the technique on how to do it.
Yeah. Right. We're, we're like reframing our whole lens of how we see someone.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Greg Moe: Um, and if you can take a step back and like see those principles, then you don't have to do that exact test or you know, like. Mlt, right? The first test directs you to like, is it visceral, CNS or not?
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: And sometimes I can't use that test.
Mm-hmm. But I do know there from you that there's a hierarchy of possible protection, right? Mm-hmm. So I'll go test the highest and the hierarchy first.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm. And see
Greg Moe: if I see something there. And if not, then I'll go to the next and I'll go to the next and I'm just kind of looking.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Greg Moe: And if it's a person that I really.
I have little confidence that any of this is right for whatever. Yeah. For ev whatever reason, I'm still looking in that pattern and
Anna Hartman: yes,
Greg Moe: I can do some quick checks and like none of the treatments take that long. Mm-hmm. Right. So I can try a quick. Cranial nerve thing and be like, okay, does that change what I want to
Anna Hartman: change?
Greg Moe: If so, I can go more that direction or you know, and if not, okay, I'm gonna try, try the next thing and try some general visceral stuff. Does that make a, you know? Yeah. And so, um, I don't know. It reminds me. Over, I've done a lot of, uh, math tutoring in my life. Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Greg Moe: And it's the same, it's literally the same thing.
Like so many of the kids that I would tutor, they're not paying attention to the principles of the math. Yes. They're just like, how do I do this problem? Like, oh, step one, you do this, step two, you do this, step three, you do this. But if something's like a little bit off, they're totally lost.
Anna Hartman: Yes.
Greg Moe: Right.
Until you say like, no, this is. This is what we're trying to accomplish, right? Mm-hmm. This is the system, this is, um, so you get, and once you show them that, then hopefully they can figure out any situation mm-hmm. That you give them. Right? And I feel like the course is very, very much along those lines.
Anna Hartman: Yeah, absolutely.
Greg Moe: Yeah. So even if I don't really know if my tests are accurate, I still have like this lens to look through and, um, yeah. So it's helpful even in that case.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. I love, I love that. I mean, and I mean even, and you said that when you, when you know your tests aren't accurate and you know you're speaking of the inhibition test and you said that like the strength test, it's not a good test.
You know, it's not a good test because they fatigue so early and you know that the definition of a good inhibition test. Is it has the ability of change. And so you're like, well, it doesn't have ability to change very clearly, especially in the positive direction. It's only gonna change in the negative direction.
It's only gonna get worse. Yeah. Only gonna get worse from here. And so it's like, yeah, okay. Like you, you recognize your limitations and I, I do. I. I'd say it's funny because yes, the so much of the course is yes, I'm teaching you these techniques, but they're a vehicle to actually teach you the principles and they're a vehicle to help you critically think through trouble spots of like.
Okay, so a strength test doesn't work. What else could you do? You know? And it is like, yeah, you're right. It doesn't work.
Greg Moe: And so, or you can't find the distal pulse.
Anna Hartman: Yeah, you can't find a pulse. Do, yeah, it makes sense. Neither can doctors in a lot of those patients, so it makes sense. Yeah. So it's like, what are some other options we can do?
And then. Yeah. Like I am sure there's been moments too that you probably thought some of your patients' structural limitations were structural and then the body's like, Nope.
Greg Moe: Yeah. Yeah. Crazy, right? Mm-hmm. Because some of the people that, uh, that had big changes were people that I was working with before taking the course.
Mm-hmm. And so like, okay. Like trying to mob like mm-hmm. The thoracic spine, and you're like, yeah, I don't think there's any motion there. Yeah. Like literally, you know, I think it's just, I don't think you can move
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Kind of thing, right? Like, we'll
Greg Moe: try. Yeah. Um, but then to see that, to see that change, you know, not even touching the spine, it's like, oh
Anna Hartman: yeah, yeah.
And you're like, not
Greg Moe: what I thought it was.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. No, I was wrong. Okay. Yeah,
Greg Moe: fair
Anna Hartman: enough. Yeah. Yep. I'm, it's humbling,
Greg Moe: you know, which is, it's so humbling and, which is great.
Anna Hartman: It's just, I mean, there's, and I'm sure you feel this way too, for all your patients. There's just like not a day that goes by that I'm not just like, wow.
The body is, it's just amazing. And the every time you think, you know, the body's like, no, you don't hold my beer. Like, I, I'm gonna surprise you here. And it's like such a more fun way to work. So much more fun. And it's, I mean, I think sometimes for our patients it's more fun too because it's like, it almost, you know, not only does it restore their hope a lot of the times, but it, um, makes them not feel so like.
Yeah, I guess it's just the hope part. It's like they just, they get to be in awe of their body too, and they also get to like, have their autonomy back and realize that some of the stories that they're told from other health practitioners are maybe not ones they should hold onto. Yeah. So, yeah. I love that.
Yeah. Well, that's cool. I know we're getting towards the end of our hour together. Um, so what are your. Parting words for someone who might be on the fence about if now is the time to sign up for the online course coming up, or an in-person course, or both? Um, yeah. What would, what would you say to anybody on the fence?
Greg Moe: Uh, very simply, I would say just do it. Yeah.
Anna Hartman: That's fair.
Greg Moe: At some point, if you're interested, you kind of just have to take action. Right. I think that's, I mean, whether it's in business or, or like as a clinician, like you need to take the action and go. Yeah. Right. Um. Nothing's gonna change until you do. Right. It's not, this changes
Anna Hartman: until it does. Yeah.
You
Greg Moe: know, go take another course or whatever. Like Yeah. Take a go, take something. Right. If you're, if you're stuck or if you're wanting more. Um, yeah. I mean, this has been the most valuable class for me out of all the classes that I've taken, because everything else was, was treatments. Right? Like that. I actually can't really think of another class that I've even come across.
Mm-hmm. That's like, no, this is like a different framework for assessment.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: Um, and then
Anna Hartman: that you can use all those treatments that you've learned Yeah. In other courses and you can
Greg Moe: use everything else, right? Mm-hmm. And you can still learn more. Um, and
Anna Hartman: yeah.
Greg Moe: And because it's like the whole body, like it's applicable to whatever population you're, you're treating.
Like I even done some like, uh. Postconcussion stuff.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: Right. And it's like,
Anna Hartman: huh,
Greg Moe: I don't know. This is pretty interesting. Right? Yeah. Just like, just see what it says. Mm-hmm. You know, I, um, and so yeah, I'd say just like jump in, I mean, my personal, my personal bias is like the in-person is, is great. Like yeah.
If you can, right. Like, that's what I would do. Mm-hmm. Because at, at some point. You have to feel it in your own body.
Anna Hartman: Yeah, I would agree. Right? Mm-hmm.
Greg Moe: Um, and so, but I think together, like the amount of support that you get is Val is really valuable.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: Um, so I think it makes sense why, like, for the certification, like you gotta do both, right?
You gotta put in the time. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, because it doesn't happen overnight, like you could learn. No,
Anna Hartman: it's not, you know,
Greg Moe: you learn it. All right. Learn. How to do it.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Greg Moe: But like to become proficient at doing it.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. You know, learning and to really integrate the principles, right. To really integrate the principles like you, you are, and it's like, yeah, it takes time.
Like you'll be introduced to them over the two days, but like it takes time to like sit with them and let 'em marinate and like really become second nature to you. And then. It. I, I think the big, the learning curve of it is that it's like a totally new paradigm and when you're entering a new paradigm, as exciting as it is and as like helpful as it is to, to have a new lens, a fresh lens, it's also very, creates so much cognitive dissonance because we've been in this deeply held belief system that the musculoskeletals.
And the biomechanics like are the driver of everything. And so you don't realize how strong those beliefs are, how deep they run until you are met with the evidence in front of you when you, you know, like, like the person you're talking about when you gently cup around their liver and their rigid thoracic spine changes by so many degrees of motion that you're like.
I can't not like you can't unsee it. Like you're like, you can't unsee it. You can't unsee it. And so it's like there is some mental heaviness that just takes time and repetitions and like some, you know, a little bit of like Yeah, yeah. Internal. And I
Greg Moe: think
Anna Hartman: this,
Greg Moe: and like for someone that is on the fence, I feel like sometimes it's like, you wanna do it?
You have to convince yourself to like pay the money.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Greg Moe: Uh, and so like if you, if you're wanting to convince yourself, then I would say go, like, go back to the beginning of the podcast and just start listening. Yeah. Because like, I, I did that once when I signed up for the course. 'cause I think I had a month and I just like, I'm gonna try to listen to every
Anna Hartman: podcast you did.
You, you binged to the podcast. I remember that.
Greg Moe: Yeah. Right. So, and every time and doing that got me really excited. Yes. So, you know, if someone's like, I wanna do it and there's that part of that that really wants to do it, I think that's a good way to like pull the other part of you along. Yeah. Is just start binging the podcast 'cause it's, yeah.
Oh that's so cool. Oh, that's so cool. That's so cool. Right. And then, then you can convince yourself like, yeah. Alright. Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Speaking of binging the podcast, that's brings up a good question. What has been your favorite episode so far? Do you have a favorite? I know it's hard to pick a favorite or like a couple favorites.
Like first of mind,
Greg Moe: they all kind of blur together because I did it like all in order. Same,
Anna Hartman: same.
Greg Moe: But I will say that the story that first comes to mind, I don't know if I will say it's my favorite, but the one, but I remember the one that you were talking about your own. What was it? Was it Compartment syndrome?
Anna Hartman: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Greg Moe: And here how you, like you didn't, you couldn't see it in yourself?
Anna Hartman: No, no.
Greg Moe: And like, I
Anna Hartman: did not see how that was like a totally not normal response. It was Lex. It was like, you know, that's not normal, right? Yeah. And I was like, what? It isn't?
Greg Moe: No, I don't know. That one stands out. I could just like.
I mean, it's very true, right? Yeah. It's really hard. But, and also just funny, right? Like mm-hmm. I don't know. I like that one a lot. Like, that's so true. Good. We can't, we can help all these other people, but like
Anna Hartman: it's hard to help ourselves. You are 100% correct. And you know what? That, that has been like. A blessing for all my shin splint guys, because they all have a layer of compartment syndrome with it too.
So I'm like, that has been the gift that keeps on giving in my body, so Love it. That's awesome. I love it. All right, well, um, where can people connect with you besides our Facebook group community? Um, what's your social.
Greg Moe: Uh, just Instagram. It is at greg mo DPT, so perfect. G-R-E-G-M-O-E-D-P-T. That's the easiest way.
Anna Hartman: Cool. Well, yeah, people go connect with Greg. He's great. I, I've loved having you in the community, love getting to know you over the last year and, um. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait. Me too. I can't wait.
Greg Moe: Vice versa.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. I
Greg Moe: will say be forewarned like a lot of my social media is like, has my family in it and stuff like that.
I'm not like a professional, no social media promoter. Um, no. There's some nutrition stuff in there, but like. Eh, it all ties in, right? If you can't, absolutely. If you're not feeling good, you can't be a hundred percent with your family. No. So,
Anna Hartman: no.
Greg Moe: You know,
Anna Hartman: we're all, I mean, funny story,
Greg Moe: I know we're running strong time, but, no, you're good.
I was thinking like, what? Like why, why do I want to stay feeling good and strong? We, we had to move furniture around in our house and uh, I had an idea of where it should go. And this is a shout out to my wife. I told her where I thought it should go, but uh, that was the last place that we tried it. And before that I was moving furniture into like 15 different,
Anna Hartman: oh my god.
Greg Moe: Places heavy deaths and things like, this is why I need to feel good in my body. Yes. Funny enough, we put it in there, the spot that I originally suggested. She's like, you know what, I like it there.
Anna Hartman: Cool. Wonderful. You're like, great, great. Why didn't think about that I, my workout?
Greg Moe: Why that is, it happens both ways, but that was just like a.
Interesting. You know, anyway. But that's why we all need to feel good in our bodies.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. We all need to feel good in our bodies and feeling, you know, this is a message I harp on a lot and the LTAP level one, and in the mentorship, like, if you don't feel good in your body, you don't have a very good chance of helping other people feel good in your body.
So, yeah.
Greg Moe: Yeah. I love that. And the more you, the more you have to work through, the more it benefits them.
Anna Hartman: Absolutely 100% the old oxygen mask on you first.
Greg Moe: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Cool. All right my friend. Well, um, have a good evening. Thank you for joining me and hope to see you soon.
Greg Moe: Thank you.
Anna Hartman: Okay. Bye. Bye.