Integrating Visceral Work Into Orthopedic Practice
In this episode of the Unreal Results podcast, I’m joined by my friend and Doctor of Physical Therapy, Missy Albrecht. I first connected with Missy through our mutual friend Jill Miller, and I’ve been fascinated by her ability to seamlessly blend visceral and orthopedic approaches in a way that’s both grounded and effective. In this episode, Missy shares how her journey from chronic fatigue and unresolved back pain led her to the transformative power of visceral work. You’ll hear us talk about how the body compensates around internal dysfunction, what it takes to gain trust in your hands, and why general listening is often misunderstood. We also dive into how shifting our language around healing can empower both patients and clinicians. Whether you’re new to visceral manipulation or have been practicing it for years, this episode will reignite your curiosity, challenge your biases, and remind you that your most valuable tool is the ability to listen.
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
Connect with Missy on Instagram
Missy's Clinic's Website
Work with Missy remotely: Organ Healing Guide
Learn the LTAP™ In-Person in one of my upcoming courses
Considering the viscera as a source of musculoskeletal pain and dysfunction is a great way to ensure a more true whole body approach to care, however it can be a bit overwhelming on where to start, which is exactly why I created the Visceral Referral Cheat Sheet. This FREE download will help you to learn the most common visceral referral patterns affecting the musculoskeletal system. Download it at www.unrealresultspod.com
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Anna Hartman: Hey there and welcome. I'm Anna Hartman and this is Unreal Results, a podcast where I help you get better outcomes and gain the confidence that you can help anyone, even the most complex cases. Join me as I teach about the influence of the visceral organs in the nervous system on movement, pain and injuries, all while shifting the paradigm of what whole body assessment and treatment really looks like.
I'm glad you're here. Let's dive in.
Hello, hello and welcome back to another episode of the Unreal Results Podcast. Have another special episode for you all this week. Um, I have a guest on today. Um, my friend Dr. Missy, she works or owns maybe I think even, um, the, um, in the Denver area, Stay Invincible is her name on Instagram. We met, I originally met Missy through, um, our friend Jill Miller.
Um, because Jill was like, Hey, there's another practitioner I know that does visceral manipulation and sort of integrates it with some of the self-care work. I think you would like her. And she like shared your Instagram and I was like, oh yeah. She like, this is great. So, um, you are, you are like one of the only other people I see on Instagram, um, at least, or maybe one of the few people I see on Instagram that is sort of.
Bridging the gap between visceral manipulation and orthopedics, visceral manipulation, hands-on therapy, and like all the things you can do from a self-care standpoint to support that work too. So, um, I mean, I just think you are a great resource, especially for patients, um, and or people like consumers. Uh, whereas like sometimes my Instagram is a little bit more, um, catered towards the other professionals.
So it's just really nice to mm-hmm. Have you out there. And, um, we've been talking behind the scenes in the dms and we're like, let's just share this conversation with everyone as we get to know each other and like, um, see how different we practice. But then probably what we're probably gonna find out is probably pretty darn similar.
So, um, I'll have you introduce yourself to the crew. Welcome Dr. Missy.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah. Thank you for the kind words. And gosh, Jill Miller is doing so many amazing things and it's such a like. Bridge for, she's introduced so many amazing people to me, so I appreciate it. And I kinda, I felt the same way when I saw your Instagram.
I was like, man, someone else wants to like not be in this woo woo energy world. We need to like, bring it to everyday people. And coming from an athletic background myself, I'm like, how do we, how do I get this CrossFitter to understand their abdominal surgery is messing with their performance? So it's been so fun.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Because, and uh, obviously we talk about how we wanna talk about like, even the doctor perspective here, but it's like, because so many times that happens and the doctor's like, oh, you're fine. We fixed, you we're, you're fine. You don't need anything that shouldn't affect you. And I'm like, what, what, what do you mean it shouldn't affect you?
Yeah. So I think that's so interesting. And, um. I mean, obviously, so you're a physical therapist and Yes. You, um, have been studying with the RAL Institute as well to learn visceral manipulation and neural manipulation.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah, so I, uh, graduated PT school in 2011. My athletic background was, I played soccer in college, but after college got really into CrossFit, was coaching CrossFit while I was in PT school.
Um, and at the time had gone through some major, major, like I was given the diagnosis chronic fatigue syndrome, which is like, we don't really know what's wrong with you, but you're tired all the time. Um, I'm sorry.
Anna Hartman: You feel like shit? Yeah.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: I'm like, I was just able to perform at this really high level and now I can't go for a run without feeling like crap.
Um, and so we actually were blessed in PT school with a professor who did a day of visceral work. He was, um. More through the Institute of Physical Art, the IPA training, so slightly different than the Bral. Um, and I was having back pain that nobody could figure out. And so I went and saw him and he fixed my right si joint problem by working on my intestines.
And at, in that moment, I was like, I'm gonna do that.
Anna Hartman: I'm gonna learn
Dr. Missy Albrecht: that.
Anna Hartman: That's amazing. What did
Dr. Missy Albrecht: you say what
Anna Hartman: school you went to? Yeah. What school?
Dr. Missy Albrecht: I went to Mount St. Mary's in, uh, downtown la. Oh yeah.
Anna Hartman: Nice. That's awesome. I love to hear that that gets integrated. I, I, I feel like it's becoming more common for at least to have students like exposed to it, which is nice.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Um, because yeah, when I, I mean, when I went through school I, strangely enough, I did my. Um, graduate work at an osteopathic based school. Um, I went to still university for my grad school, and at the time it was not a university status yet. It was, um, called Arizona School of Health Sciences and it was a, well, it still is obviously a branch of Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine.
So that's, you know, the founding School of Osteopathic Medicine. And, and I remember actually even having, um, we did this founder's day celebration at school and um, which was to celebrate at still the founder of Osteopathic Medicine, the founder of Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine, and. You know, we actually made fun of the, you know, it was kinda like we did an SNL skit and we're like, body, mind, spirit, you know, spirit.
Yeah. The tenets of, um, osteopathy. And it was just, I, I reflect back on that and I'm like, wow, what am missed opportunity for us at that school to actually learn the principles of osteopathic medicine? We didn't at all beyond like mm-hmm. Knowing who our doctor was and knowing what osteopath osteopathy was, and it was just like, Nope.
Well we're gonna teach that still from a Western perspective. And it was, it like, yeah, I look back and I'm like, wow, they really are missing the boat with like a good opportunity to really integrate the two. And I mean, and maybe it's changed over the years. Obviously every school like always updates their curriculum, but it's just funny that, you know.
They probably got it right in the beginning. And then as they added in all these other professions and all these other degrees, it, it sort of got murky with traditional Western, um, allopathic type approaches. And I actually was a ambassador for the, um, Arizona School of Dentistry and Oral Health that opened up at still University when I was there.
And I thought it was really interesting because they were actually embracing a little bit more of the osteopathic principles in the way they taught and in a systems, um, orientation. And they taught like mm-hmm whole body instead of just dental health. And I was like, wow. I remember being like, man, if I wasn't already like an athletic trainer and in this healthcare.
This like more whole body physical healthcare. Like I'd be, this actually makes me really interested in dental school. So it was just funny to again, like see the different approaches. But, um, how cool that
Dr. Missy Albrecht: you came full circle though. Like now you're able to work in the mouth and work on the teeth and like Exactly.
Yeah. Right. Reflect back on that spirit energy piece. I love that. Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Yeah, it, it, it is really interesting and I didn't learn about, um, the Ral Institute until, like 10 years into my career. And, um, I learned through, um, my colleague Veronica Campbell. Do you, have you, do you know Veronica? I don't think so.
She's, she teaches, um, uh, the, I think neural manipulation, uh, classes like maybe M1 and, um, definitely NM one, maybe some of the other nms. But, um, she's a physical therapist also in Arizona. That's where I was at the time and. She was connected to our company and she, um, was like, Hey, I'm learning this. She had learned same thing through IPA at first of visceral work and then got exposed to the Bral Institute.
And then once she started learning from them was like, really like, oh my gosh, you guys have to see this work. And she would always release athletes hip flexors right? All the time, which got mm-hmm. Got good results and like better, you know, so many people would come, athletes would come with back pain and um, we would release their hip flexor and they'd feel better.
But then you'd get in the cycle of you're like constantly releasing the hip flexor over and over again in order to, and what else am I pushing
Dr. Missy Albrecht: out of the way to get to the hip flexor? Right?
Anna Hartman: When she came in and she was like, oh look, but right what's on top of the hip flexor is the visceral organs, and let me show you how to like, manipulate the colon or whatever, um, to get the same results with less.
Less of, you know, less intensity or less, uh, muscle bias. But she was first learning it, and so she was still in that transition of too heavy of hands. So mm-hmm. To me it still felt very similar to like, well, like you're literally doing the same thing. Like, and I remember, and I was also at that age room, like, I get good results.
I know when I'm like, I know everything. We're good. Yeah. And so I remember learning it and being like, Hmm, it's cool. I understand. I get the anatomy. I actually in undergrad, like I dissected a whole abdomen in the cadaver lab, like I get it. Oh wow. But I, like now it's not for us. And so we moved on from it.
And then a few years later, uh, my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer and I. When I dove in to understand all I could about the diagnosis of lung cancer, the symptoms, like, you know, all the things, um, that's when I started seeing that common complaints, our shoulder pain and upper back pain and numbness and tingling in the fingers.
And she had all of those things. And she not only had all of those things, but she had all of those things for like 10 to 15 years prior. And she would always like, you know, fail physical therapy in terms of she'd do all the things. She'd go, she'd like literally do everything that was asked of 'em and never, her shoulder would never fail better.
And because the industry's so, like, okay with mediocre results, they just kind of like blamed her for being outta shape and being like, you're probably not doing your exercises. And so she stopped going, you know, like it just kind of fizzle out. And then when she got her biopsy. The, the tumor biopsy, the um, little, the spot of the main part of the tumor that they biopsied was literally like the exact spot she complained of pinpoint back pain, like my entire youth.
And that's when I was like, oh my gosh. And then I saw her body change, dynamic alignment as it organized itself around, you know, that lesion. And as it organized itself around how when the pressure was lost within the cavity from the, you know, lung collapsing. And I was just like, holy cow. People's posture has nothing to do with how strong they are or what the muscles are doing.
I was like, it has mm-hmm. Everything to do with what's going on in the inside. And by not understanding what's going on on the inside, like I'm doing my athletes a disservice. And so that's when I was like, I gotta revisit this visceral thing. And was, had the intention to sign up for a course and then. I didn't get to until after she passed away.
And, but, and I had the same thing as you. I also had like real bad chronic back pain after having back surgery the two years prior that nobody could fix all the regular treatments weren't working. And just in VM one, like they were doing some technique on like my duodenum and I had this sensation of my bladder like drop into my pelvis and need to pee.
Mm-hmm. So I went to the bathroom and I peed and then I literally had no more back pain and I was like, what?
Dr. Missy Albrecht: What is happening?
Anna Hartman: Yes, exactly. I was like, so that's amazing. Long story of how I got into it, but like, yeah, definitely full circle in so many ways. So
Dr. Missy Albrecht: yeah, I think we have all those little, I'm sorry about your mom too, but what a, um, beautiful introduction into just like seeing those deeper structures.
I mean the number of like. I remember when I was working at an insurance clinic when I was still in California, it was like there's, I don't know what else to do with you. And now I'm like, I'm like, can I call you? Can I find you?
Anna Hartman: Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Like how can I shout this to more people?
Anna Hartman: Yeah. And that's the thing too, I am like, I like kind of my messaging whenever I'm like teaching people and why I think this work is so important is yeah, so we can catch the underlying things and get people better faster and like give hope for the people.
Like you're saying, you know, that going have like bowel surgery and then wonder why their performance and their movement and their mobility like has changed so much. Um, but it's also to like level up the industry, like
Dr. Missy Albrecht: mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: The problem, the reason why we don't catch the red flags is 'cause one of the red flags is you're not getting better and.
Because the industry is like so set on mediocre results and like just think that that's like, you know what happens when you're working with humans, they're unpredictable. You can't fix everyone. Pain centralizes. Like we have all these reasons why, all these excuses why we think people just don't get better.
And I'm like, actually no, they do get better.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: You just have to do better at figuring it out. Yeah. And when they don't get better, it is a red flag. It is something else that could be lung, like it could be lung cancer and
Dr. Missy Albrecht: mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: You don't have the confidence that you can get everyone better. You don't see those red flags.
And that's exactly what happened to my mom. And so I was just like, I want to bring this to the whole industries because I want people to get better results Yes. Mm-hmm. For their patients, but ultimately to catch those things, so, so the next person mom who has lung cancer. You know, catches it early, which is very curable.
Mm-hmm. Versus, doesn't catch it till it's stage four. So yeah, that's really my whole mission. And that's also why, you know, it's like, why I have tried the bridge, the gap between the visceral work that we're all work in, like more orthopedic he stuff. Because the learning curve of trusting what you feel in your hands is steep and long.
Mm-hmm. So like being able to like, make it make sense to the clinician earlier in on their journey. I think there's just more buy-in to even go through the whole curriculum. Mm-hmm. Because, so I, and maybe you saw this too, is like you, in those lower level classes, you get so many people that are like, oh, I'm, I'm learning all these techniques, but I don't know how to use 'em.
I'm not seeing the results that the teachers are telling us we could see. And so I'm like, yeah, there's a missing piece. And it's like, yeah. I mean, it goes back to the listening, the general listening. People just feel like it's too woo woo. But it's like it relies on what you're feeling in your hands. And so, and you already don't trust yourself as a clinician 'cause you're not able to fix it, everyone.
And so it's like this cycle we get in.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah, I, uh, I actually started, um, being a teaching assistant for VM one and it's really interesting because it took me, I started the coursework in 2017 and it took me at least two years to do general listening on everyone. 'cause I was like, how am I gonna get, how can I tell this patient what the heck I'm doing with their head and how I can, I know I feel something and I know it's guiding me to something, but it just feels too weird to, to share.
And so when they, they have the TAs like introduce each other in their story, I always try and share that. I'm like, it took me. Way too long to trust my hands. And now I just say like, this is what we're doing. This is how I can make sure that we're not just chasing your symptom. Um, but I remember having all these funny, like, oh, I'm feeling your posture.
And they're like, what the heck does that mean? I'm like, that's all I'm gonna say. This is too weird.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Um, I mean, I do, like, I would tell a similar, I'm like, Hey, I'm just like feeling what your dynamic alignment is. As soon as I touch your head, your body goes and kind of protects the most important thing.
And you know, it's like, like it goes into a hug around that area and then I feel it in my hand. Like, you know, it's either front, back, right side, left side. And yeah, most of the time people are like, oh, okay.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm. Like, sure, whatever.
Anna Hartman: I think it is too, like. Patients are usually more open than other clinicians.
Right. Patients are like, I don't care what you do, just make me better. That's a good point. Yeah.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: And I think sometimes when we go back to our clinics or wherever we're working after learning it in those early classes, like we're actually embarrassed of what the other clinicians world think.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: A hundred percent.
Anna Hartman: Yep. More than the patient. And then also because we're still unsure of, or what we're feeling, we're like, am I feeling something or not? Yeah. We're afraid of our patients not seeing us as the expert anymore.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm. And
Anna Hartman: which is like, you know, one of the things that we're learning and trying to shift to in these models is the body is the expert, not you.
Mm-hmm. And so, but it does, we're told our whole. Whole life really. And then our career that as a healthcare provider, we're the expert on someone else's body. And so there's this like dissonance, this like fight with letting go. I always tell people it's like about letting go of your ego. It's letting go of this expert mind that.
And like that's what feels uncomfortable about practicing the general listening technique first off, is like,
Dr. Missy Albrecht: I remember those first few conversations with like my friends that I went to PT school with and now like having, we have so, so many traditional PTs that refer to us and they're like my favorite people to work with because they get it.
But if we go do a workshop at a PT clinic, like you just know people are gonna be like, this person's crazy. But I just, you get to a point where you're like, I just don't care anymore. 'cause even if they don't believe it, yeah.
Anna Hartman: Well, it's like I always tell people like, you don't care anymore because like, you, again, when you're, you're doing the work to feel more in your body.
Like you start to recognize what truth feels like.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: And like, you, like, you know, this is accurate, you know, it works, you know, it's true that the body is the smartest person in the room. You feel it in your bones when you're working on someone.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm. And then you see the evidence in your results.
And so I'm like, and that's, I, every time I teach one of my classes, I'm like, listen, I, I like lay out the core beliefs of the class was just like, you know, the theorems we're trying to prove, basically. I was like, but I can tell you all day long that this is the way it works and how the body works and like, um, you know, that the musculoskeletal system is protecting.
Things that are more important. I was like, but my challenge to you is to like be open to seeing it for yourself because you're gonna believe it a lot more if you see it and feel it with your own hands than me just telling you all the time.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: So, yeah. And then I was like, and then you have to grapple with that.
Once you've seen it, you can't unsee it.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah. It's just, it's just amazing. Well, I have not personally taken your course yet. I'm so bummed. I didn't have it on my Denver radar recently, but I had some friends that were in it and I just think what you're doing is so cool. I think I even have a friend in Boston who you have a virtual training.
Mm-hmm. Um, OR program. So I've peaked at that a little bit, but I just think it's really cool what, how you're making it, you're kind of reaching those people that probably leave the first two intro classes. Like, this is not for me.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Uh, but. Yeah, I think it just sounds like you're making it way more accessible, which is so cool.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, I love that. It has been kind of crazy to see it, you know, you throw stuff out there and you're like, I'm not sure if this just works for me or everyone. And so it's been really cool to see it work for everyone and um, and, and yeah, help them be more excited about going back to the overall courses and learning more.
Mm-hmm. And I always tell people, I'm like, this is not, I'm not teaching their work. I'm not trying to replace it. Like, if anything, I'm trying to get you in it. Like yeah. More people that know these skills the better. I was like, like I'm trying to get you in it from like a very non, I, like, I get nothing, you know, unless somebody like rec said that I referred them.
Mm-hmm. Like I get nothing for doing that. And it's just because I believe in it so much and I think they do such a good job teaching it. Yeah. So, yeah. So I appreciate that. Um, anyways, let's talk about, I mean, let's. Let's talk, um, the whole like, doctor piece, like, I don't know, who knows if doctors listen to this podcast?
You never know, but on the Yeah, I know a lot of what's, it would be nice to have a resource that people could send doctors to, to, to listen to, right? Mm-hmm. Or have like a cheat sheet of like, what to talk to the doctors about. I know, um, one of my colleagues, uh, Josh Geller, um, he's a PT in Washington. He is gone through all my coursework, but he's also gone through some of the ral work too.
It's like his doctors that he works with are like so open to it, but because they felt it on their own body, so now they're like mm-hmm. Starting to get it. Mm-hmm. But like, yeah. Like what? Like if you were to like, be able to speak to a doctor right now, like what would you tell 'em like about the work and why it's so important?
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah. I. Yeah, it, it makes me think of, I was just at the, um, brain training through the Bral Institute. Gail Wesler was teaching it. And from a like clinician patient interaction, it seems very simple because we hear someone say, oh, my doctor told me nothing can be done. And we're going to look at it from a like, okay, imaging was clear, you don't need surgery.
Um, but you're still having this issue. We're gonna look at it with curiosity. Like, we're never gonna over promise. We're never gonna say, oh yeah, I can actually fix you. Mm-hmm. Um, but we're gonna be very curious with what their body was. Were they honing in just on the abdomen and it's really their lung.
Um, look at it with curiosity. So I think that's the challenge is we're having these really cool conversations with patients. But how do we, I've got a couple of, um, mostly like dos and functional medicine doctors out here in Denver who believe in the work and same thing, like you said, have felt the work.
And so that's, those are the referrals we get. But I wanna, I would love to talk to, like, I think the surgeons would be low hanging fruit. Like if you do c-sections, like this work is available. This is, I I just remember when, um, it was 2019, I was like, okay, 2020, I'm just gonna like show up and introduce myself to these surgeons and like let them know what we can feel and what we could do.
And then COVID happened and I'm like, I'm the last person they wanna talk to right now. Uh, but I think that would be, the hope would be to. Just try a little bit more like direct work to those surgeons and just be like, you know how you're cutting through all these layers and pulling the intestines out during a C-section?
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: We can, we can help balance the system, um, at a deeper level.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Well, and even with that, like, I'm sure they're going in after, you know, for another pregnancy when somebody's already had a C-section, so they see the, they see the deep effects of the incision. Mm-hmm. Right. So it's like, how could they, like, do you think it is, like they don't, um, believe that it's possible to make changes so deep from the outside?
Or like, what do you like, what do you Yeah,
Dr. Missy Albrecht: I think that's a good way to put it.
Anna Hartman: Profess science, basically.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah. It's kind of, I bet you it's, I think you said it well. 'cause a lot of. Me in the western medicine world, it's adhesions, and the only reason that only way to get rid of an adhesion is surgically.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Versus being able to improve movement through this way and to their defense. Uh, this is why it would be cool to just talk to people, but I know they have so much going on.
Anna Hartman: Yes.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: That even if they don't have the time to, like, feel it, just know like, Hey, this is a, an opportunity for your patient. Yeah.
Um, yeah.
Anna Hartman: It's almost like I, it, it kind of reminds me almost, it's like, it's almost like you have to pitch yourself to the, to the surgeon in terms of like, you're, you're trying to like get started in your business in a way in terms of like mm-hmm. Just give me three of your difficult patients.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Right? Like, do you have three patients that like, are complaining of pain or like, that you've basically wanted to tell? There's nothing I can do. Like, give them to me and like, let's, let me see if we can make a change. So you can see the possibilities. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: You know? Yeah. And it's
Anna Hartman: like, you're just like, that's all I ask.
Yeah. Is like, lemme show. It's kind of like the, let me show you. Let me not tell you, but show you. Yeah. And like, you know, whether they take you up it or not, like who knows? But it's like, at least that's like a, it's not like a you're trying to tell them anything. It's just like, let me, let's see if it's possible.
And like, I think sometimes with the doctors. Sometimes I think the doctors say things out of their mouth that they don't mean, or that they like just say like, not think, not realizing that the patient's like holding on to that so much. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, all clinicians, this is not just doctors like Yeah.
You know, I very carefully to not tell the clients like stories about their body. Yep. 'cause it's not my story to, to like create. And so, um, I think sometimes they're like, oh, there's nothing I can do. Which to a patient means there's nothing there's that can be
Dr. Missy Albrecht: done.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. In the, in the doctor's head, it's, this is not surgical.
I can't help you with surgery.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. And because the doctor has so much outta their shit on their plate, like they don't think about how that landed on the patient and was, and so they don't take that extra step to say. But if there's someone else that could help you, I'll like happily, you know, heavily like direct you in that way, or like, I'll happily like let you, you know, grant you permission to go that route.
Mm-hmm. Or often the doctors don't know that there's people out there that can't help. Yeah. And, and so it's like, yeah. It's, I think it, I mean ultimately it does have to sometimes just be a conversation with Yeah. With the person. And, um, but whenever you can give them like evidence, it's, it's kind of great.
Um, yeah. And I think when it's evidence of their own patients, it's more strong and just being like, here's 10 people that I worked on post C-section and like, here's their results. Like, nobody likes like a research paper handed to them. And so it's like, that's basically what that is.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah. Well I think, uh.
If we have any surgeons that listen to this, we would be happy to do a virtual in-service for your office. Yeah. To share a little bit more about, 'cause I think the, like, I don't know if you have this conversation with patients often, but like the adhesion conversation. 'cause they're like, can you break up my adhesion?
And I'm like, well, we've learned a lot in the fascial system over the years and we're not really breaking it up. We're remodeling it. And we're just, we're just trying to improve movement and see what your amazing body can do with that movement. Mm-hmm. Um,
Anna Hartman: yeah. Yeah. I do. I mean, I follow that under the, like I try to choose my words wisely.
Yeah. And not use words like that, like adhesions or, um. I even try not, I mean, it is scar tissue, so it's like, I guess you can say that, but people think that's synonymous, right? So it's like I try to not even say that. I'm just like, yeah, like this tissue that has been laid down from the wound is really stiff, and so we need to do some work to it.
Well, it's not only stiff, but it doesn't have the same amount of proprioceptive information to it. Like the brain hasn't mapped it yet. I was like, so, mm-hmm. We need to do work on it so that we can like teach your brain that it's there and like. Give your body more information around it. Um, also help to sort of like rehydrate the area, right?
Like, it's like kind of like a dried out sponge a little bit. So we need to stimulate the few cells in it that are like water retractors to bring in the water and like just change the general quality of it. Yeah. And it takes longer to explain that than being like, we're gonna break up some scar tissue.
But I'm like, but that's actually what's happening. And I'm like, if I, yeah, yeah. If I choose the words better of like what more, it's more truly what's happening, then it's like, yeah, we're trying to change the sensory information to that area so your body feels safer around it. Ultimately.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay.
I, I need to use the, um, I feel like I tend to go into like beef jerky rather than a dried up sponge and a dried up sponge just sounds better.
Anna Hartman: It does sound better. Well, and it sounds more possible to rehydrate versus Exactly,
Dr. Missy Albrecht: exactly. Jerky is
Anna Hartman: like, once it's jerky, I don't think there's any It's jerky.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah. Plus you got your vegans and they're like already traumatized by the thought of that it
Anna Hartman: out.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: A dried out sponges is a little bit more approachable. But yeah.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: I mean, I think, yeah, I, I think, I think what was so darn cool about this work and, um, John Pierre Baral obviously had been like in this brain class that I was in recently.
He's been doing the techniques for over 40 years and it just goes to show like. Even though the research, the research is catching up like in a traditional sense where like surgeons in western medicine, doctors will maybe grab onto it a little bit more, but it's still very case study based. And one of the comments he makes about the brain work, he's like, you know, this is gonna be, this is gonna be really hard for the scientific world to prove that we can feel what we can feel and we can do what we can do.
But don't stop that. He's like, I've been helping people's brains for 40 years. Why would you, why would you stop? Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: So it's trying to, because
Anna Hartman: it's not invasive, like why would you stop? Yeah. Not hurting them.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah. There's no like, very minimal risk. Um, and so it's kind of like how do we bring that message to the surgeons in a way that's not, um, that's giving them grace?
Like, Hey, there's this other opportunity. Rather than like, you are wrong, we're right. Um, it's just like, if you've tried all of your things, I even feel the same way. Like if I have a patient who I'm just not getting there, I'm like, who else do we need to bring in? Because I don't feel like I'm the end all be either.
Anna Hartman: Absolutely. Yeah. Same. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, and I do think like ultimately every doctor really does care about their patients and they want to help them. It's just they get so many people on their schedule, and then the ones that they can't help, they just, because they don't know. They're like, I'm, they, they don't say, I'm sorry.
Unfortunately, like sometimes I feel like your patient just wants to hear that you don't know. They would rather hear, you don't know. Mm-hmm. And you're willing to help them and you're here for them and like open to try things versus there's no hope. I, you can't be helped. Like, it's like, hmm. Yeah. I'm like doctors.
Mm-hmm. Can you listen to like, speak to yourself in the mirror here? Like, would you want to hear that? Yeah. So that is a little, that is because I, and I think too, they're a little,
especially in some cases, I could see how the doctors are like a little bit resistant to give hope to patients. Right. You know, like you're, like you said what Gail said, like not overpromising sort of thing. Like I think sometimes that the doctors and the patient think like when they hear this person could help you, all they hear is this person can help you, not, could help you.
Yeah. Possibly. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so again, it goes back to like the words we choose and be like, this is worth trying.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Let's be curious on mm-hmm. If it will make a difference or not. Some people have gotten results from this and you may too. And, and sometimes I'm like, which often I'm like, you know what it should hopefully do is like let people know that there's so much other things to try.
Like I always tell my athletes like, I'm gonna start with the first few things that kind of like, you know, quote unquote work for everyone. But if those don't work, don't worry. I got more tricks up my sleeve. Yeah. Like there's so many things that we could try, right? Yeah. And so I, and again, going back to like surgeons, they're toolless surgery, they're really good at surgery.
I can never do brain surgery. I can never do our surgery. We want
Dr. Missy Albrecht: them to be good at that. Yeah. Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Right. I'm like, so it's like, can't you just like recognize, like that's your tool and there's other tools out there that can help the symptoms.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: And like, how can we connect your patients with people like us that can help the symptoms better?
Mm-hmm. And I think at least this day and age, you know, we used to only have to rely on the conversations we could have with the doctor if we could even have them. Right. Yeah. Now, this day and age, with the internet being like the go-to place for help, at least we're reaching people that way. Right? They might not get this message from their doctor, but at least there's an opportunities to sift through the misinformation.
But like, see, there's more options out there. Yeah. So, and this is too, like, this is, I feel like, um, a plea to other professionals in places like me and you are, is like, this is why I want everyone sharing what they're doing is like you reach more people. Yes. And, and I really, you know, when I first created the course.
And like started putting out there and, and especially started putting it out there as its own thing. It used to be part of my mentorship, so it was kinda like hidden amongst all this information. When I first started putting out there, I was a little nervous of like, Ooh, I don't want the Baral Institute to think that I am stealing their stuff, which I wasn't.
Yeah. But also that I'm trying to like, I don't want them to think that I am trying to say it sucks or like, you know, something's missing and like, this is the thing that's gonna help ever, you know, like I was like, I wasn't sure how it would land.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm. And
Anna Hartman: then in one of my classes around the same time that Ron was teaching Ron ti, he's like, he goes, I can't encourage you enough.
He's like, and this is not just from me. He's like, this is the message from John Pierre. Like, share it, share your unique approach to it. Like. Teach it, like do it, whatever. You can get the word out. And I was like,
Dr. Missy Albrecht: mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: It was like a little bit of like permission to be like, I love Yeah, do. Yeah. And I was like, oh man, I really need, for me, I really needed to hear that.
But I'm like, and that was like my intention the whole time. And it's like, I do think there's this feeling among clinicians sometimes is like, oh, it's not my work to share, or I'm not an expert in it, so who am I to be sharing? And I'm like, who are you to be sharing like you if, if you truly wanna be an advocate for your patients.
Like, you have to remember that your patients are not the only ones that have only seen you. They are your future patients too. And so it's like you ha like it is your responsibility to them. Yeah. The word out. Yeah. And, and yeah, they might not become your patient. They might, you know, I might get the word out and they become your patient.
But I'm like, at the end of the day, like we're spreading the message of like, there's all these tools out there and there's this way to look at the body that through this lens of curiosity that can give you so much more hope and opportunities to feel better. And so it's like mm-hmm. You know, I think, I think it is, as much as we wanna talk to the doctors, um, and get the referrals from the doctors, it's like their plates are so full.
I think sometimes we'd just be like, they'd be like, fuck it. We're just gonna get the wor word out to everyone instead. And how about patients tell you the doctors 'cause enough patients tell the doctors they're getting good results. Yes. That will peak. Their curiosity. Right?
Dr. Missy Albrecht: A hundred percent. Yeah, a hundred percent.
It's like, yeah. And I think it's, uh, yeah, there's so many different angles to come at it, and I think that's what's really cool about, I think both of our stories is we're both, we both have a similar message. We wanna get this out there, but like your teaching clinicians and you have this podcast and really deep in the sports world, and I am over here doing a lot of, um, I'm doing like mentorship with people who are taking the baral classes and then doing community education.
So there's just so many we need to tackle it from so diff so many different ways. Um, absolutely. Because someone may that doesn't not wanna listen to me.
Anna Hartman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, like your family, like my families work. Yeah. They don't hear it, but then like literally they're, you know, my sister's like.
You know, my niece's parent says something to my sister about like, Hey, have you ever tried this technique? It really got good results for someone. It's literally something that I do and I'm like, really? Really, Molly? You've never heard of that before?
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Well, I don't, I feel like, uh, when you are around friends and family, do they just ask you to touch their head, because that's what I get all the time.
Anna Hartman: Yes. My friend, my athletes, I was, my favorite story about the general listening is, um, I was at the Pro Bowl with a couple of my athletes and, um. One of 'em, we were like all in the pool, like drinking, like the pro Bowl is very like, yeah, there's the game and the guy's practice, but the three quarters of the day is just like relaxing at the pool or like having fun, right?
And so we're all in the pool and this football player's like Anna, he's with all of his teammates. He's like, Anna, come here. And I come over and I'm like, yeah, what's up? He's like, do the thing. I was like, what do you mean the thing, he's like, you know the thing, put your hand on top of my head and tell me where I hurt.
And I was like, what? He's like, I got hurt in practice today and I'm telling them all that you're gonna be able to feel it without me telling them, telling you. And I was like, okay. And I like, I was like, okay, come over. And I, so I did it on the side of the pool and I was like, oh, I don't know. It feels like maybe right side, like upper leg, like groin ish area, like close to the midline.
And he's like, yes, my groin. I pulled my groin. He was like so hyped and I was just like, oh my God, this is not a magic dream.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah, I love it. But it also is 'cause you're getting buy-in with all those
Anna Hartman: Oh, 100%.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Um, I remember, I remember I was at a friend's house for dinner and I had had a, I feel like it always happens with a couple glasses of wine and people are like, Hey, this guy was like, I am, um, I'm missing a kidney.
Would, would you be able to feel the top of my head and feel which one? I was like, you guys, this is a lot of pressure. I've had some alcohol. This is not how I practice, but Sure. So I
Anna Hartman: better with alcohol. Pretend you're not thinking so much, you're just feeling
Dr. Missy Albrecht: touche. Touche. Maybe I'll pivot my practice.
But so I feel his body. And I'm like, okay, I think you're, I think you're missing your right kidney. And I'm like, which one is it? He's like, I don't know,
Anna Hartman: like how I'm asking you.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: I'm like, alright, well it's your right one, so, but come into my clinic if you want a legit evaluation, please. This is not all that it is.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. This is not a like side show on the street thing in Vegas here. Yeah,
Dr. Missy Albrecht: exactly.
Anna Hartman: That's
Dr. Missy Albrecht: so funny. Yeah. But it makes it hard when you're around people 'cause you're like, you wanna show people but you also have to take a break and Oh yeah. Not, not think about it.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. That's why I try not to tell people what I do in non-work settings.
'cause I'm like, I don't want questions.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yes.
Anna Hartman: That is really funny. I was gonna say, so that kind of leads me to, we were talking, when we were talking about the doctor thing. I was talking about, you know, you were sharing how you wish the doctors that did like visceral surgeries would know that we could help after, um, surgeries or even before or when they can't help somebody.
But, um, I was talking about how in orthopedic surgeries, um, people come in post-op and when I do the assessment, like most of the time I'm taken to areas that are not related to the surgery area, but in other parts of the bar body that were affected either with the initial trauma to the injury from the injury or associated with the surgical things like, you know, their trachea is a common spot or their gastro, esophageal sphincter is a common spot from.
The nausea associated with the medicine and then the, um, the intubation from the anesthesia. And then I get a lot of like stuff around the area where the tourniquets were or like where the, um, if they had a nerve block, right. The, the trauma from that. And so I'm like, this is, I think post-surgical, this work is like, so important.
But what, what that kidney story remind me of is, I think the biggest thing that, you know, the. General listening has taught me is to not go into an session with someone, an assessment with somebody, and like assume I know what's going to come up. Like just because they don't have one kidney
Dr. Missy Albrecht: mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Doesn't mean that that's where the body's actually going to direct you as the area of concern or the area of Yeah. I always call it a protection pattern, like where the body is directing you to do the treatment. And so same thing like with the surgery, that's not how I even just hammers home. Like this idea of, um, there was a quote from Jean Pierre in one of the classes I learned of like the, it's not the compensation that's the problem, right.
The body is. Made to compensate is that when we've lost the ability to compensate for something, that's when the injury happens or that's when disease happens, or, um, you know, disease, not necessarily disease. Right. And so we are asking, when we're doing a general listening, it's more like we're asking the body, like, where in the body have you lost the ability to compensate for somewhere so I can kind of help you do something in that area to make a little bit more space for all the rest of the compensation that must happen.
And I, I think surgery is a good example of that, of like post-surgery. Yeah, there's an incision, but the thing that was injured, so the thing that was the original area that the body lost, the ability to compensate around is fixed. And so it's like mm-hmm. Okay, now what else is that? But then we cleared on all these other traumas, like what else could it be?
Or even in the beginning. Mm-hmm. What else? Like, yeah, you tore your ACL, but like is it because like you didn't have very good lumbo pelvic hip hip control because of your duodenum
Dr. Missy Albrecht: mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: That well, right. And like affecting the fascia on your back mm-hmm. And the function and the muscles around that area.
And so it's like, I always tell people in my classes of the assessment is like, don't be biased by their story and like their subjective mm-hmm. Exam. And I actually, it may be, you can speak to how you operate, but like I truly do try to take this objective exam almost completely out of things now. Like of course I give space for it.
'cause people want, people want to tell their story. That's part of the human connection piece. So important for our nervous system, but it doesn't bias me on. Where I'm going to start treatment and what I'm going to do treatment on it is mm-hmm. Distracting to me in that sense. And so I don't actually want to hear the story until I've done the initial assessment and like, are I'm ready to treat?
And then once I'm ready to treat, then I'm like, okay, tell me your story.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm. And
Anna Hartman: am like, because yeah, I don't want to know that somebody doesn't have a kidney because I don't want to mm-hmm. Assume that it's their kidney. I don't want to know somebody has asthma 'cause I don't wanna assume it's gonna be the right bronchus.
I want the body to tell me that.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm. And
Anna Hartman: that's another big shift in the assessment piece of like, and I think, and this is like, I call it when I first was messaging my course and why clinicians needed it, I'm like, yeah, you think you treat whole body. You might, right? You might have somebody come in with an ankle issue and you're looking at their hip and their pelvis and their breathing mechanics.
Maybe. I'm like, but that's not the whole body. So I switched to say, treat the whole organism, the nervous system. Mm-hmm. The visceral, like all the pieces and like treating the whole organism is realizing too that everything that happened to the body has been recorded in its tissue and so you don't need the story to go with it.
Um
Dr. Missy Albrecht: mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Which is a, a big change in the medical model. Right. So do you do a similar thing? Huge obviously too. I didn't make this up right. We're told this in the Brawl Institute to like do the general listening first.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah. Yeah. Well it makes me think of, um, John Pierre only wants to know like two things.
I can't remember what those two things are, but he like doesn't even really do a subjective. But I remember I did listening with Ron Martti, and he was, he was encouraging not to do the subjective first. And so for a while I would do that. I feel like now I've gotten to the point where I can hear it and then kind of wipe it away.
Um, but I do have patients come in and they're like, just do your thing. I wanna see what you feel first. Yeah. Um, so I'll do, I'll do that. But it does, I think when I was first learning the work, it was super helpful, um, because there is a, a piece of like, we can project with our hands where we want the body to go.
Right. So it's like the patient's coming in with right lower back pain and like, we have our hand on their head and we want to, we wanna be able to prove to them like, oh, I can feel that pain. Yeah. And now I'm like, I, I can, I feel confident in my explanation to be like, actually, your body pulled me to your right eye.
I know you're having issues in your ankles, but we're gonna figure out how that's tied together. And they're like, okay, whatever. Do your thing. Yeah,
Anna Hartman: yeah. I love that. Yeah. That is like, I, um, I do kind of speak to that because I'm like, you know, I, I do talk about, at least to my clinicians, I'm like, you know, our body is taking in all this information all the time.
And, um, sometimes all you need to do is just direct your attention. Like tell your brain where you wanna direct your attention to. It's like, let that information in is like all day long. Our body is giving us information on like, temperature touch, like, um, pressure of the air. Like, you know, like the things we feel like the little move, like.
Movements of the hair on our skin, like all of that's coming in at all times. Like
Dr. Missy Albrecht: mm-hmm. If we were
Anna Hartman: cognitive of all the information coming into Brian all at once, we would feel like I was, it reminds me of the movie Bruce Almighty, when he starts hearing everybody's like prayers and it's like, oh, no, stop.
Like, I'm like, if we were aware of all the information coming into our body, in our brain all the time, that's how we would feel. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, like you can direct your hand just like you did to the, the guy without the kidney. Like you can tell your hand, feel the absence of a kidney, or like, take me to their kidney.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: And you can take yourself right to that kidney, which Yeah. Which is why like, I'm like, yeah. If I can not hear their story, I prefer it because then I don't have to like practice, not like I don't have to practice being unbiased. Yeah. If I just don't hear the story, then I'm like, oh, everything's clear and all I ask and I do like a little mantra before.
I put my hand on people is like, give me a clear message of where I need to go. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: I love that. And
Anna Hartman: um, and I, I'm like, this is a little bit to me of like appreciating that we are sensory beings. Mm-hmm. Like that is how we've developed. And I even tell the patients that I'm like, Hey, like nobody taught you from being a baby to being an adult.
Like, how to walk, run, sit up, like move, roll over. All those things happened because of our sensory experience in life.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: I'm like, and so that is how we always organized everything that we do. You know, we just think that we're smarter than that system. I'm like, no. Like all I'm doing is like using that power of the sensory information through my hands and telling my brain, like letting them talk to each other.
So yeah. I love that. Yeah. Um, well,
Dr. Missy Albrecht: and I think, I don't know if you. Have you come across a lot of, uh, the other visceral trainings and people who come in expecting like a really aggressive manipulation? 'cause that's what they've had it in the, had in the past.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Um, I, not a lot with my clients. Um, okay.
But the clinicians who've taken my classes, I'm like, whoa, what are you doing? And they're like, oh, visceral roarke. And I was like, that is not, I mean, I guess it is. You're working in the visceral. I'm like, but I would not do that.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: And I think to your, to your point of like, you know, when we, we could, we can kind of like will where we want to go rather than listening to the body.
If we were to not take this specific gentle approach from the Bral Institute and just apply typical muscle techniques to the organ system, we're really doing, I believe, a disservice because. Not only is it painful and uncomfortable for the patient, their nervous system is not feeling safe enough to even probably respond well, maybe you get an extra poop.
And that's a success for them just from moving things around. But the next day they're like, just, I think listening. Yeah. Yeah. The whole, the, the full spectrum of the treatment is not complete because we haven't listened to where that intestine wants to go to actually unwind that tension pattern rather than just like, I'm, and that's, I think it is, I went through a period where I was too heavy handed, and as I am, like training newer people how to lighten up, it's like, like I can tell when they're doing it on me.
I'm like, no, I think you're, I think you gotta like back off and really listen. Like where does that. Yeah. Where's that body taking you? Um mm-hmm. And it's so meditative for us. I don't know if you feel I have found it to be so healing Absolutely. For myself.
Anna Hartman: Well, it forces like, to me, I feel like it just forces you to be really present and like mm-hmm.
It also, I feel like, forces you to do the work in your own body because when you're distracted by what you're feeling in your own body, it's impossible to bring your attention on anything else but that. And so I'm like, mm-hmm. If you don't feel like if you have back pain, if you have knee pain, like you either have to set yourself up so you're not feeling that in the assessment and treatment, or you need to just heal yourself so you can feel them a little bit better.
And, um, you know, it's one of the, one of the things that, um, I, how I teach it is like. And the Bral Institute does this without like saying it necessarily. They teach us principles of osteopathic medicine through the techniques. And that principle that you're talking about is to not force things.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Right.
Anna Hartman: And like understanding like yeah. From a nervous system perspective, as soon as I force my agenda on you or literally force you physically, your instant reflex like a neurological reflex is to going to be either to fight back or to dissociate. And so I think some of these like deep painful techniques, you get the illusion of a good result afterwards because it's that freeze mode.
The body's like, okay, I'm not gonna protect this anymore because I just have to play dead. Yeah. And by being dead, their mobility improves, but then the next day they have even a stronger protection pattern over it.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: And so I'm like, yeah, and, and that is like, I love that. That is how we're taught is to be so gentle and listen to the body and follow its lead and like even like treat into the direction of ease.
Like even like with the NM techniques, right? When we put somebody side bending to treat the menes because they're already in a side bend position because the meninges are, try, you know, the spinal dura is trying to take the pressure off the granial dura and it's like when we meet the body where it's at and treat there, it's, it feels safer.
It like it always comes down to safety and so, mm-hmm. Especially in the visceral organs that are unprotected in containers like the intestines. I'm like, yeah. Mm-hmm. When you go forcing things, like, I agree. I think we're doing a huge disservice to them. Yeah. Like going to have a rebound effect because Yeah.
They already don't have a whole lot of protection around them. They only have the muscular protection, which is not a very good bodyguard. That's not as good as like the ribcage or the cranium is at protecting things. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It is like the tendency to just like go into freeze mode, I think is pretty high.
And, um, so that's, that's inter, like, that's, I, that's what I kind of, I love that like always looking at, there's this quote by, um, Harrington Emerson that says like, you learn techniques to understand principles, and then once you understand the principles, you can create your own techniques. Mm-hmm. This is all about, like he's talking about systems, but it's like it works.
It's true for this too. It's like everything. Yeah. By learning all these techniques in the Baral Institute, which they give us so many techniques, but the majority of them are like very similar in the principles of what they do. And the principles are this like osteopathic principle of not forcing things, meeting the body where it's at, like creating safety and then freeing up the nerves and the arteries so they can get information and blood flow to the tissues.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah. Yeah.
Anna Hartman: And those are like original principles from AT Steel. Right. So it's like, it's just really cool to, to like. No, and maybe I'm not very good at reading the books when I take the classes too. I just, but I'm like, maybe there's so
Dr. Missy Albrecht: much. Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. But it's,
Dr. Missy Albrecht: um, not every teacher, I'm not always good either, but
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
And I'm like, and not every teacher is, I don't wanna say good in pointing out the principles, but like, it, it's easier to, it's just, like I said, it's easier to show you, for you to believe it by yourself and to show you the technique, you know? Mm-hmm. Instead of telling you, well, this is the principle and this is how we're gonna apply it.
But I'm like, no, if I show you and then I have you critically think on like, why that worked, then you're like, oh, I do see how that's the pri like an osteopathic principle that I wasn't accept. Yeah. And when I, that's when I decide. I, I, I did early on when learning, I realized that. I was like, wow, this work is very different than what I've been doing in the past in the sports performance, physical therapy world.
Yeah. And so I'm like, how? I'm a, I'm a big believer, you know, going back to like how truth feels in my body. Okay. So I really felt in my body this way, this osteopathic way of doing things felt more true, felt safer.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: And um, so I was like, if I'm really going to accept this into my practice, these are true.
Like, these are principles. So that means these principles have to work in all this other stuff too. So I actually started taking all these principles that I learned through the techniques of the visceral manipulation and the neuro manipulation, and I started applying them in. Traditional orthopedic techniques.
Right? For joint mode. Yeah. Joint
Dr. Missy Albrecht: mobilization muscles. Yeah,
Anna Hartman: exactly. Instead of doing a joint mode in distraction and like at end range, I compressed it and did little oscillations in the direction of ease, right? Like I stacked into the direction of ease, like just like we did in the um, organs, and I was like, whoa, the outcomes were like so much better.
And then I, yeah, then I took a step back and I'm like, okay, so that principle worked and then I, and then I took a second to be like, why is that? Um. W how is that principle like supported by the actual physiology? And then it's like, well, if you think about it, joints like love language is compression.
Mm-hmm. I'm like, so you're, you're compressing the joint instead of distracting it, you're like already giving it all the information that it loves anyways, which is compression. Mm-hmm. Even though some people are like, oh wait, but wasn't compression the reason that they didn't feel very good? Like if they have, I was like, yeah, but it's different.
Like it's different.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah. Yeah. The
Anna Hartman: compression that led to the arthritis is like too much. Pressure in one area because the dynamic alignment was off. Mm-hmm. I was like, so I can give compression throughout the whole joint and like give better mechano reception. And then you go back to like the neurology piece.
Right now we're like, now we're improving all this meno reception around the joint and we're making this cerebellum function better.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm. Right? Like,
Anna Hartman: oh wow, you see all these things that we've learned in school. Right. This is where our knowledge comes in. Mm-hmm. Like, I'm like, oh, then I made sense of like, no wonder this joint mo mob could work better with the opposite than what they've told us.
Mm-hmm. It's checking all the boxes of safety for the nervous system, like connecting it to the central nervous system via the cerebellum and the McKenna receptors, and like giving more proprioceptive information to the sensory motor system. So it's, you know, always going back to the cerebellum too, so it's like, oh.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Everything just wants a hug.
Anna Hartman: Right? Everything wants a hug. Everything just wants,
Dr. Missy Albrecht: like, just love on
Anna Hartman: on the micro and the macro. The
Dr. Missy Albrecht: macro. Well, it makes me think of one of my professors recently shared about, because it was, I think it was the, um, it was the TMJ technique. Mm-hmm. And it is the same thing where you compress before you lengthen.
Mm-hmm. And she shared like if a drawer is stuck.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Sometimes you can't just pull it, you have to push it back in. Yeah. And then it, let's, let's back out. So I love that you
Anna Hartman: a little side to side and then you Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is funny. Like I, I think there's like, yeah. I mean, and this is my bias of like.
All through all ages of school. I loved critical thinking parts of like, you know, most people in like English class, when I got to the critical thinking piece, they're like, oh, I hate the critical thinking questions, but I'm like, I love the critical thinking questions. I'm a thinker. Yeah, of course. I thinking.
But it kind of goes back to like, I think in our industry, because we are just, again, it goes back to that idea that we're the experts, um, on some on the body is we learn techniques or we learn protocols and we never actually question them.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: We never like take the scientific process and be like, this is a theory that I'm given and I, my job as a scientist is to actually disprove it.
And by trying to disprove it, you often end up proving it, right? Mm-hmm. But that's the critical thinking piece. So it's like early on in my career. Um, uh, I learned from, I think it, I mean, it was definitely like the mentors I learned from exos, but I think it's like a very, like Mike Boyle, um, thing is like, have an in, like, know the intention for literally every single thing you're doing on someone.
And so I, I've always programmed that way of like, critical thinking of like, well, why would I give this patient to squat? Like, what is it mm-hmm. About this squatting exercise that they need. Mm-hmm. And then taking it one step farther is sort of like, well, yeah, what does this technique do and how does that relate to the physiology?
And does that make sense? Like, do I even want that in the first place? Yeah. And then it's like, oftentimes I'm like, do you even realize why you're doing distraction on the joint and a joint mob? Like, and they're like, well, that's how I learned it. I'm like,
Dr. Missy Albrecht: mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: Does that mean it's the right way? Like, yeah, just
Dr. Missy Albrecht: because
Anna Hartman: we learned it that way.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: I remember learning that it was, uh, it helps flush. Yeah. I remember learning it helps flush the, the nutrients out.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Uh, or flush like swelling and that kind of stuff out there, but it was like, it was, it seems like it's a little bit more of like a symptomatic support.
Anna Hartman: Exactly. Rather than
Dr. Missy Albrecht: that like root cause.
Yeah,
Anna Hartman: exactly. You're having pain with compression, so let's decompress you.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm like,
Anna Hartman: okay, if that's the theory, then great. But I'm like, okay. But to me that's an incomplete treatment. So yes, if it does flush the things out, great. What's gonna bring the nutrients in? Probably the compression.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Yeah. So it's like, okay,
Anna Hartman: I'm not saying to never decompress things, but it's like, yeah. So think, think through full circle and like how do you, again, like how do you. Support things in its entirety, which is like the theme, right? How do you support the organism in its entirety? Yeah. And it's like, this is, I feel like so lucky that we were given the gift of learning this work, right?
Because it is like, oh
Dr. Missy Albrecht: yeah. Such a gift. And I think it's also, I don't know about your experience, but been very humbling to be, you know, I've been in practice I think about 15 years now and it's, it's so humbling because you see science change. And so then when you're like, yes, everybody needs to squat, you stop saying that.
'cause you're like, there's not one thing that everybody probably should be doing because we just, we learn so many different things. There might be some consistency, but. Who knows what we'll learn in another 10 years with the body. And there's just so much that we don't know. So that's what I love about the Baral work is it, it leaves things open for different paths that we may never have thought.
I never thought I'd be working on people's eyeballs, right? But here we're here we're, and we're getting rid of shoulder pain and all that stuff with eyeballs, but it's just, to me, it removes a lot of pressure of trying to be the expert where, like you said, the body is the expert and we're just here to listen to it and guide it through unraveling.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. It's so great. I know my, my, my favorite quote from one of my physical or my football players is like when he was trying to get his teammates to see me. They're like, well, what does she do? And he is like, I don't know my, I tell her my knee hurts. She sticks her finger in my ear and then I feel better.
My knee doesn't hurt anymore. I'm like, he's not wrong. And and you're right. I never thought that, sticking my fingers in different orifices of the face and belly button and making such big dramatic changes. But yet here we are, here we're, it's so fun and everybody like, you probably feel this, like, it's just such a more fulfilling practice because every patient, no matter, like you could get 10 shoulder pains in a row and they're all gonna be completely different journeys in their body of like how to relieve that shoulder pain.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: There's no boredom. It's like every day amazement. Yep. Yeah. Which that's so cool. Makes it
Anna Hartman: a little harder in this world of everybody's like, wants. What do I do for my shoulder? What's a normal protocol for this? And I'm like, there is not a normal protocol. You are unique. Yeah, you are unique. There is no protocol for it.
Like,
Dr. Missy Albrecht: yeah. Yeah. I'm starting to do some, uh, like recorded movement, deeper structure movement classes. Like an online database. Yeah. And so I'm like, okay, we're gonna have like 20 shoulder classes because it could go any pathway, but we'll see how it goes. Yeah.
Anna Hartman: I love that. I love that you're creating that.
I, um. Yeah, people are always like, oh, you know, 'cause I share some movements on the organs and I, you know, and again, I didn't invent that. That is, I always tell people, I'm like, well, your organs are moving with the movement, whether you realize it or not. You're just not seeing it through that lens, like
Dr. Missy Albrecht: mm-hmm.
Anna Hartman: You a movement through muscles. Through bones. Yep. Through, um, fascia, through organs, like, and it's a different experience every time. It doesn't make one right or wrong, but like, to me, I'm like, how cool is that? I can perform hip mobility and talk about it from a kidney perspective, and it feels completely different.
Then talking about it from a joint perspective. And I'm like, that is like how, like to me, I'm like, doesn't that like get you so excited for how cool the body is? Like it's just amazing to me. And so, yeah. Yeah. So cool. Create to create like here's what you need for your hip mobility. I'm like, well, I don't know.
Do you like, again, do you need your eye exercises for hip mobility or do you need humming your bronchus or do you need a kidney thing? I don't know. But,
Dr. Missy Albrecht: um, it's, well this is why your podcast is so amazing 'cause you're speaking to providers and spreading like they in, in reality, they need to have their body evaluated.
Anna Hartman: Yeah, absolutely. We all do. And, and I think too, it's like. Again, and it goes again to like, we will all, everybody at some point in their career will start to feel burnt out. It's the, it's the nature of the beast, but it's like the things that lead to burnout are not good results. Um, thinking that there's a protocol and a right way to do everything and not healing your own body.
Taking the time to like do the work on your own body. Like, I really think that those are the three primary drivers, period. And like when you learn to assess and treat in this more osteopathic lens, it's kind of affects those exact three things. Mm-hmm. Right. And it becomes fun again. And when you have fun, you know, you don't get, you're not burn out like you're helping people.
It's interesting. It's. Even though you're leaning into feeling more, it's actually more stimulating to your brain. Mm-hmm. It gets you to think more that critical thinking piece. 'cause some people are like, do you, they're, you know, some people are like, do you never like learn anymore? Then like, I'm like, no.
I'm like, no, not at
Dr. Missy Albrecht: all.
Anna Hartman: It never ends. And I'm like, and it always comes. We have an anatomy
Dr. Missy Albrecht: book in our head.
Anna Hartman: Exactly. It's like, and it always comes down to like more anatomy, more and more anatomy, more physiology like, but now I understand how it wor like put, gets packed together in a big organism and picture and then it's like still just a, you know, so little, an iota of what there is to know about the body.
We'll never know everything. And to me that feels exciting to know that you'll never know everything. Some people Yeah, I agree. Yeah. But to me it's, I agree. Oh yeah. That means our whole career we are learning and our whole career we are changing and like, those are two of my core values. So like, that was like, time me up.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Great. Anna, thanks. Yeah, I'm in. Well it even, it makes me think of, uh, last year I went through a really hard, like emotional, um, experience that I had never gone through. So I was having all these emotions come up that I didn't. Looking back now, I'm grateful for it because I learned how to process a new emotion.
Um, but it was so challenging to do this work because I had to get myself ready to be able to be there not only for my patient to talk, but to be able to feel in the body. Yes. And so I learned To your point, to your third pillar of like taking care of your own self, I had to like. Shut down other parts of my life just to be able to like, figure out how to deal with this emotion, get external support, um, because it was just so intertwined.
And I feel, I honestly feel like if I wasn't doing this work, I feel like I would probably still be emotionally stuck because I wouldn't have had that motivation of like, oh no, I have a patient in three hours. I need to, like, something's gotta happen otherwise I don't know what I'm gonna do in this session.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: So it was, um, love that.
Anna Hartman: I had a very similar experience to that too. And when I was first learning the work, you know, obviously it was right after my mom died and I, um, didn't, I don't think, you know, who knows what I would've done right? But like. At the same time I took around that time I was taking the listening course from Ron.
And you know, he came up to me in a lab one time and was like, you know, what are you feeling? And I was like, I don't know what I'm feeling. And he is like, I'm like, I'm pretty frustrated. And he's like, uh, he goes, okay, let's walk through it. And I put my hand back on the patient and he is like, what are you feeling?
And I'm like, Ugh, I don't know. And I started thinking, and he goes, take your hand off of them. I was like, what? He's like, you're thinking, he is like, when your hands on, someone permission only to feel and describe what you're feeling. And when he, you know, I was like, that really res. And when I did that and I put a bit down and I described what I feel, I was like, oh my God, I felt it.
And um, it was a huge ripple effect in my whole life because I. I then like took that mantra of like, feel, don't think and like describe what you're feeling, like, spend the time to describe what you're feeling and I would journal on it. And I, you know, and it just like helped me unpack like so many emotions that I was feeling in my body with and sorrow and sadness.
I was feeling losing my mom and like changing my career and like doing all the things. And it was like, I was also doing a lot of different movement practices at the same time. And so I was like tying that all together, like feeling more proprioceptive information for my body at the same time of like actually putting words to like the emotional feelings I was feeling.
And that is like when I like, man, the, the leaps and bound I made with being able to feel through my hand then is what highlighted. Like, wow, you can't feel I. Somebody else's body until you like actually start feeling in your own. And that goes mm-hmm. From an proprioceptive standpoint to an emotional standpoint.
And for the 30 years of my life, before my mom died, I was the type of person who hated feeling any emotion. And I would just like stuff, stuff, stuff, stuff. Tough. So I practiced my whole life of not feeling things, and then I was like, wow, this is getting in the way of doing a good job of my work. Mm-hmm.
And that was like you said, like the catalyst for being like, well, I gotta, like, I gotta take the time then on this personal development journey to like start feeling because it's affecting me in more aspects than just my emotional piece. And so mm-hmm. It's like, what a gift. Yeah. Like again, going back to like what a gift this work has been like, what a gift that, you know, learning how to feel not only like helped me in my grief and not just my grief, but like becoming a more.
Emotionally intelligent human being. Mm-hmm. That didn't then, you know, that could be the type of, um, em, empathetic practitioner, but didn't like, take on everybody's energy. Like learning how to like, separate the two. Like, oh yeah, what a gift. That always to learn that. But then at the same time, like the, the, the reward was being able to like, get so much more good information in my hands to then be able to help people.
Yeah. And so it's like the journey, like, again, like when I teach, I tell people at the end of the class, I was like, you know, whether you realize it or not, signing up for this class is gonna take you on like a personal journey of learning how to feel more. And that goes for every aspect of your life.
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Mm-hmm. So, and not, not the norm for education. So that's great, especially in the science world. So I love that feel. Don't think. I
Anna Hartman: don't think well, um, I just looked at the time, I'm like, oh, we've been talking a really long time. We have so much more to talk about. Um, we'll have to do this again. Um, and definitely one day get to hang out in person.
Yeah. So, um, is there anything you wanna, like, leave the people with in terms of any last parting words or, and or last parting words plus how to find you on the interwebs and connect with you as well?
Dr. Missy Albrecht: Uh, I think just being curious with your body and curious with your, I know a lot of people that listen to this are providers and even if you don't know this work yet, like tune into what you feel, um, and I think the body will, will surprise you. Um, but yeah, I'm, my company is invincible. We are stay invincible on socials and website and all of that stuff.
So, um, and I've already, whether she wants to or not, Anna and I are gonna do a surgeon medical zoom at some point. So I love that. Stay, stay tuned for our inservices.
Anna Hartman: Love that. Um, cool. Yeah, and I'll make sure, uh, my guy Joe links everything in the show notes for you so you can, you can find, um, Missy, but obviously, like if you listened and love the podcast, like let us know, tag us on social media and, uh, share more importantly, I share with your fellow clinicians or patients or whoever you feel like needs to hear this episode.
So thanks Missy. So great to, uh, have you join us.